-
Unknown A
Do you think we will get to the point where Trump effectively throws Elon under the bus and makes him the fall guy for some problem in the administration? Or do you think he truly is intimidated and he's bought in to the mythology of Elon as this mega genius who can never be disagreed with?
-
Unknown B
I hope he's not charmed. They will sell this country down the river. Of course they will get rid of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. They will over the American worker in every possible way. I'm incredibly concerned if the robber barons actually have the support and Trump almost as a marginal figure in his own administration. Personnel is policy. A lot of it's delegated. And I fear that in all of this, the people with real power are going to be these robber barons. And if that's the truth, if he's really charmed, I think we're all kind of, we need to be even stronger against these people. Hey folks, please, like comment and subscribe. And if you want to read what's going on from a pro republic, anti corruption and anti oligarch perspective, subscribe to the Weekly Patriot. The link is in the description.
-
Unknown A
You know, I've heard Brian Tyler Cohen make this point and I think it's true that if you are a right winger, you get your credibility up. Right winger in new media, I should say you get your credibility up from attacking Democrats. But there's also, if you're a left winger, you sort of get your credibility up by attacking Democrats. And it's like, so there's this weird incentive structure where it's like, no matter where you fall politically, if you're in new media, attack Democrats. And you know, I have no problem attacking Democrats when I think they're wrong. But we gotta call it like it is in the era of Trumpism. I mean, it's just people are getting a misleading picture as to what the danger really is if all they hear when they tune into new media is 743 things where somebody disagrees with a Democrat.
-
Unknown B
Listen, it is important to criticize Democrats and full disclosure, by the way, people don't know I say this and people make fun of me because it's a meme at this point, but I voted for Bernie Sanders in 2016. I voted for Bernie Sanders in 2020. I remember being on the couch with my head in my, like, hands after Super Tuesday. I'm like, no, this is such a mistake. And, and I was like, you guys very surprised, at least with the domestic agenda, which I can speak more to than the foreign policy stuff of, of Joe Biden pleasantly surprised and happy with his approach on a lot of things in a way that I felt it was important to come out and say and to give forceful support for a lot of the administration policy. But it is good work to criticize Democrats when they deserve to be criticized and in the way, in a specific way.
-
Unknown B
So I'll give you some examples. The stuff you said about Manchin recently, where you kind of outlined what I would say is a turning point for the administration with the failure of Build Back Better.
-
Unknown A
Right.
-
Unknown B
That is specific calibrated criticism to the extent that you have your foreign policy disagreements. That is specific calibrated. It says what you need to say whether people agree or not. I also, you know, with respect to Biden's personal failings, his, you know, obviously decline. All that stuff I think is fair game and I think it's important for people to do it. Another example is recently, I think, your coverage of the decision by Democratic insiders to pick Connolly for the head of the Oversight Committee as opposed to Alexander Ocasio Cortez. I, I've been lived with someone who's had cancer. It changes you. It is a fundamental shift in who you are as a person where pain management becomes your active goal, especially esophageal cancer, which can be very, very serious. All cancer is serious, obviously. But that is to say that is important criticism of Democrats.
-
Unknown B
And I think that's based and good. But as you mentioned, we cannot lose sight of the forest here. And the forest is which I think you and Crystal have both recognize. Crystal exceptionally so on her conversation with Chink where they were discussing some of these issues. That shit's coming down the pipe and we need to have strong Democrats, not weak Democrats to fight against it.
-
Unknown A
Yeah. And you know, I became very sort of black pilled on this issue in general when everybody in new media on the left always pretended and virtue signaled like, look, all we care about is policy. We're real serious policy people. And, and then when I started seeing the Biden administration do a lot of great domestic policies, but even in some instances, like pulling out of Afghanistan, I thought was fantastic foreign policy wise. Nearly eliminating the drone war was fantastic policy wise. But this weird thing happened where I'm sitting there expecting everybody in new media who's on the left to start saying, let's go, like, now you're giving me something I can defend. Now you're giving me something I can argue for. Now you're giving me. I'll take on, I'll take on the Republicans and I'LL take on mainstream media. Who's, for example, shitting on Biden for pulling out of Afghanistan.
-
Unknown A
Yeah, this is my kind of stuff. And then when you saw the domestic agenda and you saw stuff like student debt reduction and 1400 dollars stimulus checks, and you started seeing project labor agreements for construction workers and $15 minimum wage for federal contractors and employees and the PACT act and the CHIPS act and the IRA and the infrastructure bill and adding 800,000 manufacturing jobs and a 15% corporate minimum tax rate. Here I am, naive little Kyle, going, wait, this is what we've been waiting for, right? So now let's all turn around and make the argument. And at that time it was a real black pill for me because you started seeing these channels that previously had pretended to be all about policies and criticizing Democrats from the left. Channels like Jimmy Dore, where now all of a sudden he keeps shitting on Democrats, he keeps shitting on Biden now not giving credit where credit is due and functionally just acts as a useful idiot for Republican politics.
-
Unknown A
That's what he ended up being, 100%.
-
Unknown B
I totally agree. There's, whatever it is, there's a disconnect now between some people members. I don't pretend that every member of the electorate or of the media class is blind to policy. I don't think that's fair. I think there's honest people among, I think even we all recognize that. But there's something has gone wrong in this country where there's a disconnect in policy because for years left wing people have condemned this kind of blind faith in neoliberalism. What they term neoliberalism. Right. Which I would kind of say is, you know, very liberal in the sense of deregulated markets, free trade, all this stuff. And you didn't see that with Biden. Biden was investing heavily in domestic production.
-
Unknown A
Right.
-
Unknown B
He was, you know, very build it in America, trying to protect the American worker, maintaining and sometimes enhancing, you know, protective tariffs, targeted protective tariffs, not this crazy stuff that Trump's proposing. Right, but, but that, that is all a major shift, to say nothing of the anti competitive, you know, regulations, the regulations to fight anti competitive practices by people like Lina Khan, the fcc, like major wins as you've outlined numerous times. I always see you like at this point, I think you have it memorized, this list of like wins on the domestic labor side of things, which are real tangible things and where the, the gap between Republicans, to say nothing of Trump, is massive.
-
Unknown A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the point that drives me Crazy, right? Is that so? I understand the argument back in 2016, and perhaps I was guilty of this to one extent or another. I understand the argument back in 2016, when we're looking at Hillary Clinton versus Donald Trump, there were conversations happening in left wing spaces of like, look, let's have the discussion about lesser evilism. And on certain issues, people said maybe Trump will be a lesser evil when it comes to, like, outsourcing jobs. Right. Hillary wants tpp. Trump is arguing against tpp. There were specific areas where you could say maybe. Trump famously was taking the position of like, bashing the Iraq war and hitting Hillary over that. So there was an argument of like, maybe we can see it. But the thing is, he was already president for four years. He was horrible across the board.
-
Unknown A
And Biden, the Democratic president on economic issues in particular, was way better than any of us thought. And people are still, like, pretending like we're back in 2016 and it's Hillary versus Trump and there's like a question as to who's better and who's worse when the Republican Party has continuously marched further and further Right. And basically fallen off a cliff. And that's why I think you and I are on the same page when it comes to the job of people in media. Yeah. The reason I know those policies is because this is my job. Like, my job is to know these policies and educate people on these things, give people information so they can make educated choices. And I just feel like that is being abdicated by so many people in this space and it's a real shame.
-
Unknown B
I totally, totally agree. And I want to give Chenk in many ways his credit. I've been so harsh on him. Part of which the reason is because I looked up to him for a long time and I think that he's been an effective fighter on a lot of different fronts. But there are some truths, there are fundamental truths underlying a lot of things of what he's saying. Like, I don't want, you know, what I would say it should go without saying. One is, yes, you should engage with the other side and people you don't normally engage with. No one is saying, you should not do that. You should not underestimate your enemies. I see a lot of that even amongst, frankly, a lot of liberals doing that. Not all liberals, but a lot of liberals, I feel like, who are just going along, get along or saying it's going to be no big deal.
-
Unknown B
A lot of leftists, I have to say as well, are underestimating Trump. There's a layer of Incompetency for sure, no doubt on Elon Musk and that stuff. But they constantly undermine their enemy and they don't recognize when the opposite side has good points. So to hear what you said, yeah, Trump had some good ideas. Maybe, maybe the anti competitive stuff that China was doing deserve to have target of tariffs and we should be able to recognize good ideas. And if Trump is going to hand us victories where it's like, yeah, he's raising the minimum wage, he's doing all these policy stuff that we agree with, I'm not going to say don't vote for it, but. But what you, you nailed it on, you know, on the head, which is we have the track record, right. And this is putting aside all the authoritarian stuff, which authoritarianism stuff, which is even if I agreed with on all this policy and thought it was going to happen, I probably would be an opposition to Trump because of the authoritarianism stuff.
-
Unknown B
But we have the track record. We know who's installing in positions right now, what, what issue more galvanizes the MAGA base than immigration. And you have a perfect example here. Whether you agree with H1B visa stuff or not, where the interest of capital or the interest of Elon Musk is clearly overriding the people who Steve Ban these will have no influence. And it seems like the people who are, you know, calling the shots are either whoever Trump has in his ear or frankly, the people who fund him.
-
Unknown A
Yeah. So we'll get to the MAGA civil war in a minute because that's obviously a really interesting conversation. But when it comes to Trump. Yeah. So his record, his biggest legislative accomplishment was a massive tax cut for the wealthy and corporations, where 83% of the benefits of that bill go to the top 1% in the long run, it also incentivizes outsourcing to that point. We lost 200,000 manufacturing jobs under Trump. We gained 800,000 under Biden.
-
Unknown B
No one talks about that, by the way. That is such a huge, like, accomplishment that it feels like no one acknowledges.
-
Unknown A
And that's what drives me crazy. That's why I lose my mind. Because people are just like, rehashing old debates based on old information and ignoring the current reality. And that drives me crazy. So another thing is now a lot of this is because of COVID but the fact still remains, under Trump, we lost 2.9 million jobs. 2.3 million people lost their health insurance under him. He appointed more billionaires and Wall street executives than any president in history. He filled the NLRB with union busters, his Labor Department stiffed 8 million workers of overtime pay. Never mind the foreign policy stuff, where of course he increased drone strikes, massively bombed Syria, bombed Somalia, ripped up the Iran agreement, tried to coup Venezuela. Like, all these things are horrible. And to your point, like, just look at what the Republican Party is telling you they support now and look at their record and what they have supported recently.
-
Unknown A
So, for example, I don't know why nobody talks about this. 48 Republicans voted against the Right to IVF act in the Senate. This was at the same time Trump was going around saying he was the father, the quote, the father of IVF. You have people like JD Vance, who is against no fault divorce. You have 36 Republicans in Republican senators who voted against gay marriage in the year 2022, 169 of them in the House took that vote. 44 Republicans in the Senate voted against extending the child tax credit. So the point I'm making here is there is no, there is no debate there. Like, there is no, hey, who's worse, who's better, who's more extreme? Like, these debates are settled and every moment that we're not having that conversation I feel like is colossally misleading the audience. And your number one thing in this position needs to be to educate the audience.
-
Unknown B
And the central point of what you're saying is they're broadcasting it and they're telling us what they want to do. You know, it's no good. I think sometimes people will take the self serving promise of Trump, which is clearly done, which is, you know, bad faith and inconsistent with like, so, for example, he'll say something like, you know, I'm in so in favor of the, the protections against pre existing conditions, or he'll say something, some kind of superfluous promise that is not enforceable against them or anything like that. But the things that we know that they want to do are they're saying actively and openly. There's no basis of surprise for a lot of these policies. When you put Marco Rubio in as Secretary of State, when you are taking active position, as you said, in the cultural issues, and you have people in his, you know, Mike Johnson who just endorsed saying we're going to get rid of entitlements, but really just our social network, you know, safety net and everything related to Medicare, Medicaid, like those things are on the chopping block and they're talking about it.
-
Unknown B
And if he wasn't in support of it, why would he surround himself with those people? Why wouldn't he forcefully deny that stuff? And the truth is because I think they're not hiding the ball. The same thing with H1B visas, honestly, to be honest with you. I know we'll get to it. But Trump was out in the open and saying, yeah, we'll staple a green card to every degree. And so there's no basis for surprise here. If you're supposed to. If you're, like, against legal immigration or against H1B visa issue, you can't say that you're shocked at what's going on. They're broadcasting what they're going to do.
-
Unknown A
Trump, Trump's health care bill. The first time around, when he proposed American Health Care Act, I believe it was called Trumpcare for short, it actually repealed protections for preexisting conditions as he went around the country saying, I'm going to protect your preexisting conditions. So this is like, this is Trump 101, right? Like, this is what he does. And it's so weird. He's got this, like, hypnotic ability for some percentage of the population where if he says the good thing, instead of everybody being like, you're a liar, and you propose the opposite, you're a liar, you're planning on doing the opposite.
-
Unknown B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
-
Unknown A
People just. They, like, shut down and just take it at face value because he said the good thing. And that's not. Like, nobody would afford Hillary Clinton that grace. Nobody would afford any Democrat that grace, but they afford it to him.
-
Unknown B
And what you just said, it's so wonderful the. The healthcare example, because here's a place where he'll say, I got rid of the individual mandate and why it's important to get in the weeds. Why did he get rid of the individual mandate? Well, if you're tracking the legal briefing here, and this is what I try to do for my audience, or. And what happened was there was a big kerfuffle about whether the Affordable Care act was constitutional because Congress is a government of limited powers. They're only supposed to regulate interstate commerce. And the question was, are these exchanges forcing someone to get healthcare? Is that regulated interstate commerce or forcing interstate commerce, where that didn't exist? And so there's a big kerfuffle legally. And people were actually, like, based on the question, thinking it's going to come down. But it's. It was upheld narrowly on the notion that it was a tax.
-
Unknown B
It was an exercise of Congress's taxing authority because it was managed by the IRS in every way. It looked like a duck, cracked like a duck, and was a tax. So why did he get rid of the Individual mandate. He got rid of the individual mandate because he knew that that was one of the basis to uphold the constitutionality of the protections against, you know, of the Affordable Care act as a whole. And so he knew when he did that that he was going to challenge it in court, which he did. He was in court during the election season trying to get it completely overturned. And so you're completely. It's a perfect example to show how he talks out of both sides of his mouth and takes credit for making the Affordable Care act better when his intent was to destroy it.
-
Unknown A
By the way, the Supreme Court also said, you have to opt in to the Medicaid expansion under Obamacare. And then what happened, virtually every Republican state was like, we're opting out of it. And then you got these horror stories of thousands of people dying and not having the insurance that they need. And again, these are the things that are like, it's on people like me and you to, like, explain this to people so people know the reality. But instead, there's just. These days, it's like nobody's following the specifics or there's obfuscation around it. And that's what drives me absolutely crazy.
-
Unknown B
Same thing with dreamers, by the way, where. Where I saw a clip of. Of Chang being like, well, I don't know, 95% chance. Obviously it's the worst apocalyptic immigration situation, but 5%, we could give a deal on the Dreamers. I'm like, what planet are you living in where we're. We're giving this false hope? And here's why. You know, if it was just on the margin, I wouldn't care that much, but I actually think it's putting our, like, we're putting our guard down and we're not fully prepared, and we're having these, like, I think, delusional aspirations that what we're going to get is crazy. Let us be surprised. Let us be pleasantly surprised if it turns out he's the best president. And I think he could have in his first term. I was hopeful that he would be a good president and that he would be a consequential president and, like, not just doing business as usual for a lot of these shit and then, you know, authoritarian shit, and my hopes were dashed.
-
Unknown B
And I guarantee you they'll be dashed again.
-
Unknown A
Absolutely. And by the way, in 2015 and 2016, to your point, I remember Cenk saying there was one specific area where he thought Trump might surprise everybody and get something good done. And he said that issue was Israel, Palestine. He thought since Trump is a deal maker. He might actually end up making a deal on Israel, Palestine. And what do we get on Israel Palestine? We got Israel officially recognized, officially annexes the Golan Heights and the US recognizes that he took $200 million from Sheldon Adelson, did the Abraham Accords, which was a giant middle finger to the Palestinians, basically telling them, you're going to be occupied forever and we're going to make peace around you and not with you. Right.
-
Unknown B
And recognizing Jerusalem.
-
Unknown A
Right. Doing that again, these are all things that inflamed the tensions massively. So he was an abysmal failure on that front. So nothing could be further from the truth. So let, let's talk about the MAGA civil war because this is something I've been following this closely. I'm interested your thoughts on it because look, I've always said I to the extent that there is disagreement and dissent and different camps within maga, I really do think that ultimately when push comes to shove, it's just going to come down to whatever the big man says. Everybody's going to fall in line. Right. Regardless of what the positions are that they're talking about. And I think that, I think that's already been kind of borne out. Right, because you had like the MAGA base, the Steve Bannons and the jackpot Sobics and the far right types, the white nationalist types, they were like, no, when we said we're anti immigration, we also meant high skilled immigration, immigration.
-
Unknown A
So that's where we stand. And they were very clear about that. They were very angry about that. They went after Vivek, they went after Elon Musk who took the opposite position. And then Trump comes out and is basically like, yeah, I agree with Elon. Right. And then instead of having that MAGA base then start yelling at Trump and calling him a traitor or whatever, they just sort of keep going after Elon, you know, and sort of ignore that. Trump said that. So is your read the same as mine that ultimately whatever the big man says, that's what they'll do?
-
Unknown B
Yeah, there are a couple issues, as there always are, that will like which are the, I would say COVID vaccine stuff and maybe some of these, the trans issues, maybe those are a couple areas where they will push back. Not so far as to say they won't support him, but those are the two areas where I would say it kind of bucks the trend. But overall you're completely correct. It's not a contradiction to say there are fault lines within the coalition that Trump has, has made that everyone agrees with that. Every cult has the one leader who interprets the word of the leader one way and then the other faction. So no one is saying that there aren't factions within maga. There absolutely are. There's like the pro Israel faction which is all really just about, you know, maximizing outcomes for, for the state of Israel.
-
Unknown B
There's a faction absolutely of like the Steve Bannonites. There's, you know, maybe the, the, the grip, they didn't support Trump, the droid boys. But you know what I'm talking about these different factions and there's the techno people right now. But in terms of everything, that's not those issues that I identified. What Trump says go. And this is the perfect proving ground. Right. If you were gonna see an issue that most galvanized the new MAGA right wing populist base to have a revolt and for Trump to listen, this would be the issue. But there was a bit of an outcry and then a whimper and now they're all kind of falling in line and they're not being that vocal about it. And if they are, they're targeting like Elon and Mike Johnson, like other people to get out their anger, not the Dear Leader. And they're going to support him and they're going to support his agenda.
-
Unknown B
And so that should indicate that, that we shouldn't wait to see a big revolt when the million people detention camp start. We shouldn't wait to see a revolt when Israel tries to annex the West Bank. We shouldn't wait to see a revolt on any of these things that, where there's like allegedly hope. They are not going to stand up and say, no, we really want a $15 minimum wage and we're not going to support you unless you do. There's no leverage there. It's a, the directionality is different. They're getting their cues from the leader. The leader sometimes will look at them to be savvy because he's, he has a level of cunning to him, but he's not getting his directions from, you know, Joe Schmo or Jack Posobic.
-
Unknown A
Yeah. And also like he's already appointed like seven different neocons after Don Jr. Came out and said, I'll make sure there's no neocons in this administration. And his base was like, yes, we are anti neocon. And then he picked seven neocons. And I hear crickets. I don't see any, you know, MAGA backlash because at the end of the day, he is the movement. Like he's the one I don't think it works like a left wing movement. I genuinely think is more grassroots, bottom up versus a right wing movement is more authoritarian by its nature. It's more top down. And wherever Trump decides to take the party, the party's going to go in that direction. If they were going to revolt, they would have done it by now because he already was president for four years and then he did a lot of things that were objectively horrible that hurt people.
-
Unknown A
And then this time around, running like it wasn't a deal breaker for you. When he did fraudulent elector slates and tried to literally overturn the last election, that wasn't a deal breaker for you. The 91 criminal charges wasn't a deal breaker for you. By the way, this is a point I always make people. It's like if you say, oh, I don't, I don't agree with those charges, it's like, okay, let's go charge for charge all 91 of them. And you tell me how every single one of them is bs. I would love to do you. And nobody can do.
-
Unknown B
I agree with all that. I think the New York case is like, it's so obvious he's guilty on those charges. You can say whatever you want about it being like the, the least compelling case because of the factual circumstances. I, I would 100% agree with you there. But in terms of like, did he lie and commit fraud? I mean, it's, look at the evidence. And I, and I'm one of those people. And, and what I appreciate about you is you like to get into specifics. And the specifics is where you get where all of the rich conclusions you can draw from comes from. And so, so yes, 100%, this is a person where the directionality is the other way around and the revolt isn't on its way. There's not a new base. There is like a more expanded coalition of people who support him for sure.
-
Unknown B
But those people, the additional people, they're not plugged in. They're Dave Portnoy. They're not going to, they don't care about the debt ceiling. You know, Joe Rogan is not keeping up to date on like the minimum wage. He's not going to get in that fight. You know, so the people who are the new people are low information, disengaged people. I'm not trying to judge them, but that's just the truth. And so they're not going to be the ones to motivate a groundswell unless their lives are affected in a major, major way.
-
Unknown A
Yeah. And Syria was a great example of this because he released a statement on Syria that within the same statement there was a contradiction embedded in there. Basically like castigating Obama for backing away from the red line and not going after Assad. And then at the end of it, he says, let's say, yeah. And it's like, wait, Obama did that thing and now you're attacking him for it, but also saying we should do the same thing? Like, like it doesn't need to make sense. That's the point. That's what people need to realize when it comes to this guy, he is talking cheap.
-
Unknown B
Yeah. And the contradictions are part. I mean, like, read Orwell. This is actually. We shouldn't need to explain it. And it's, it's, it's almost. It is cliche to bring it up because obviously everyone mentions it, but the contradictions are part of it. It gives. He's cunning. Trump is a cunning person. And so look at actions. That's why what you say is correct. Look at his body of work. What of the things he does where it's yes or no? Did he put in Marco Rubio as Secretary of State, yes or no? Did he do massive tax cuts that disproportionately benefit of the rich? Those are the areas where there is a, A clear answer. But if you talk is cheap. And not to say you should not take them seriously when they broadcast what they're going to do, but that's based in part on the track record.
-
Unknown B
They say they're going to do this awful shit and they've done awful shit in the past, and so we believe them when they say it.
-
Unknown A
What do you make of this is one me and Kristal have talked about quite a bit. Here's the. The distinction within maga, the different camps you have, like the Bannonites, who are more paleo conservative when it comes to economics. So they want to be more protectionist. They're more anti free trade. This is the stuff they say. But then of course, you have the Vivek Ramaswamys and all of the Wall street and billionaire supporters of Trump who are the opposite. They're more libertarian when it comes to economic policy. And the thing that's always sort of amazed me about MAGA is that they never really try to square that circle. They just act like. And I see people do this all the time, too. They'll talk about, oh, populist, Right. But they'll use the term populist interchangeably for like a paleo conservative and a libertarian like Thomas Massie.
-
Unknown A
And those worldviews are totally opposite. Like you can't use the same label for both of them because one is way more protectionist and the other one is maximum free trade. So what do you make of that, that distinction between paleo conservative and libertarian? And which faction ultimately do you think is going to win out in the end?
-
Unknown B
Yeah, I think it's a fabulous point to bring up this wordplay stuff because a lot of terminology is hid a great deal of disagreement. It's why when you say, for example, they just booed Mitch McConnell, take the win. Why they're booing Mitch McConnell is so critical.
-
Unknown A
Yes.
-
Unknown B
Why they're, they're supporting Trump is critical. So, and just a reference point before I answer your question about which faction actually I think is going to win out, take their positions on immigration. They all are in favor of a MAGA style immigration policy, but they all define it differently and for different reasons. So one flavor I think Ezra Klein put in this, I disagree a lot with what he says sometimes, but this was, I think, a good analysis. There's a Trumpian, more nativist side of the policy which is they're poisoning the blood of our people. They are bad people. They're coming over here, they're asylum seekers, they're Hannibal Lecter. That's one vision of it. There's the more J.D. vance in view, if you believe him, although I think he's probably more aligned with the Vivex than this view that I'm about to give. But that's like immigration is bad because it's undercutting domestic labor and it's hurting the American worker.
-
Unknown B
And that's even the side that sometimes that the left wing can, can appreciate and want to make some room for and understanding and those issues. That's one side of it where it's a more protectionist attitude. No, no. We're against immigration because we care about American workers. And then the third revision of it is Vivek and saying we just, we like immigration, we just want to be more tactical about it and we want to import actually a lot of people that are, that benefit the American economy and really just us as oligarchs. So those are areas where everyone talks that they're agreed on immigration, but they're so different and the underlying rationale is completely different and which side is going to win out. I think that that's that Trump, honestly he's a man sometimes of impulse and so I can't predict perfectly. But so far a good predictor has been in recent events in terms of who he aligns with, where the donor money is.
-
Unknown B
And I just have to say that that's been a good predictor.
-
Unknown A
Do you think Trump. You know, I've gone back and forth on this, but in my mind I think Trump may have actually bought into like the Elon Musk hype and the Elon Musk pr. And you see this with some of the wealthiest people in the world is they'll do like a multi year full court press to sort of make themselves appear heroic and amazing and brilliant and etc. You saw this with Bill Gates. You see this with Elon Musk. And Elon Musk, he has good PR now, he sort of ruined it a little bit because he's way too vocal and he says insane things and like, so his approval rating has fallen massively. But I sort of fear that, that Trump is almost in that same Rogan mindset where Rogan appears to genuinely think that Elon Musk is like God's gift to the earth and he has like a 250 IQ and that this guy, like, who am I with my little peanut brain to ever disagree with you, sir?
-
Unknown A
That sort of Rogan's mindset. And I kind of fear that maybe Trump has the same view, which is why to this point he's yet to do the public breakup with him. And he, because Trump, if he really wants to, he's the one with the movement behind him. He could, he could kill anybody in this movement. He could just.
-
Unknown B
I agree, totally.
-
Unknown A
Like, look what happened to Jeff Flake, the Republican who like, disagreed with Trump and then Trump was like, ok, you're done. And then he was done. Right. And so do you think we will get to the point where Trump effectively throws Elon under the bus and makes him the fall guy for some problem in the administration? Or do you think he truly is intimidated and he's bought in to the mythology of Elon as this mega genius who can never be disagreed with.
-
Unknown B
I wish I had a greater insight into his actual thoughts and feelings. Sometimes I find it a little alien brain to, to, to try to consider and ponder. Some people are able to appreciate and have a better sense of, of his head than I do at times. And I struggle with that, to be honest with you. But I hope he's not charmed. Yeah, I do think that you're right, that, that Rogan, I almost said Seth Rogen, Joe Rogan is charmed by Elon Musk. And that's not a position that you want to be in because they will sell this country down the river, of course, they will get rid of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. They will over the American worker in every possible way. And so if we're in a bad situation, it's almost between the devil you know and the devil you don't like.
-
Unknown B
I don't know what kind of authoritarian shit Trump has planned if he were like, quote, unquote, in control, but honestly, I am incredibly fearful of if Elon Musk has the reins. I'm incredibly concerned if the robber barons actually have the support. And Trump, almost as a marginal figure in his own administration, as crazy as that is to. To say out loud, I think that who you stand, personnel is policy.
-
Unknown A
Right.
-
Unknown B
And these are just the nature of the presidency. You saw, honestly, with Joe Biden, a lot of it is delegated. Maybe Joe Biden more so than other presidencies, but a lot of it's delegated. And I fear that in all of this, the people with real power are going to be these robber barons. And if that's the truth, if he's really charmed, then if he's. And I don't have a great insight there, I think we're all kind of. We need to be even stronger against these people.
-
Unknown A
Yeah. And, you know, it strikes me that Elon Musk sort of skates on all of his con artistry, and that drives me crazy as well, because I sort of feel the same way about Elon that I feel about Trump, where, like, you'll have a thousand stories that just show Trump's this hideous, disgusting, grotesque, corrupt fraud. And then you see the same thing about Elon, but he still has this army of people who are just incredibly sycophantic to him. And it's like, are you just ignoring all of the businesses that were clear scams that went belly up? Whatever happened to the hyperloop? Whatever happened to getting us on Mars in 10 years? It's been 13 years since he announced we'll be on Mars in 10 years. And this is a guy who gets $20 billion in corporate welfare. Right. And to your point, this robber baron thing, like, I don't understand why more people don't object to this idea of Doge, in principle saying that, like, I don't even.
-
Unknown A
Even if Elon Musk was the smartest guy in the world, we should not delegate our democratic government to a philosopher king where he gets to control policy. And the reason he's in this position is because he's the richest man in the world. I mean, this is like medieval peasant brain, where it's like, you're assuming there's a level of meritocracy because he's really wealthy, when in reality, I talk about this all the time on my show. 60% of billionaires come from extreme wealth and privilege. These are not just the brightest, the most intelligent, the hardest working. No, not even close. And so I can't understand for the life of me why more people don't object in principle. This is a point Crystal makes all the time to Doge that like. No, like, as a structural matter. Yeah, the structure. No, we're not doing this. That's why even, like, I disagreed with Bernie when Bernie.
-
Unknown A
Oh, I agree with those. We should cut the Pentagon. It's like trying to play footsies to get good outcomes, which I understand that mindset. I'm not saying he's a sellout. I'm just saying you need to object up front on principle that we do not just delegate our government to a robber baron philosopher king who has to make all the decisions.
-
Unknown B
Yeah, and let me give the counter and then debunk it as well, because I think that I don't explain to you, but just for the audience. So the counter is going to be like, well, Congress needs to prove any budget and so everything's going to have the same approval. I understand that that is technically true, but the way that it's structured in this, in this way where it's, it's a formal, you know, pseudo agency or pseudo department, and because Trump has the whip in hand, it is going to be as though Elon has the force of law and all effective, you know, in, in all practical purposes, it's going to be as though Elon is having the red pen and striking things he doesn't like sometimes on a whim, sometimes as a meme. It seems like Doge itself is a meme. There's a absurd cruelty about, about that as well, where he could read a tweet from who, the nose Cat turd.
-
Unknown B
And that could have a massive impact on, on your life. Sometimes the, the flippancy with which things are done. And to me, that's part of the, the evilness of it and part of why it's not good to centralize power in the hands of one person. But, but, but to your point. Yeah, I think it's. There needs to be a forceful opposition to that structure. Even in the first place. I put different levels of this kind of servility and surrender to, to Trumpism into maga, into, into Doge, where people who I consider to be like, saying, hey, Elon, Musk is this brilliant guy, like the Fettermans of the world, who are just like heaping unnecessary praise on him, like, what the are you doing, dude? Like, have some spine. Have some spine to fight back against this robber baron. You know, I put that in a different area than category, than like, Ro Khanna, who I think is playing more footsie than someone like Bernie is.
-
Unknown B
And I. And I don't like it at all. And then Bernie, who's who I think is trying to play the game and I just think it gets lost in the wind. But if he were, for example, to vote for rfk, as he's playing a little bit of footsie with, yeah, RFK has some good idea on some food. Who cares? The dude's like, against the polio vaccine and is, like, obviously not someone to your point about even the structure of it, the structure of his brain. Put aside the worm. If he's able to believe crazy shit on the basis of no evidence or fake evidence or whatever, it's not about, well, does he have some ideas? It's about how you think, not what you think.
-
Unknown A
Right.
-
Unknown B
And what are the incentives, for example, of Doge or of rfk? That's what matters, in my opinion, because we don't know what's going to be the pandemic down the line. We don't know what's coming next. We need to make sure these people are capable and having the right incentives and not the wrong incentives. And that's why I disagree with this whole footsie to all the degrees. I recognize the different categories and I appreciate them, but I disagree with all of it. I think we just need to be strong and oppositional.
-
Unknown A
Rfk, he believes in junk science. He doesn't actually believe in science. He's the kind of person who would talk up alternative medicine, right? Oh, it's not connected to Big Pharma, therefore it's like, better for you. But there's a reason why alternative medicine has the label alternative. Because it didn't make the cut to be actual medicine. So when you actually have the double blind placebo controlled studies, oh, would you look at that? This shit doesn't work. Kash Patel, who Trump has picked, he was hawking a pill, a supplement that he claimed reversed the MRNA vaccine. These are the kinds of people that we're dealing with. I don't trust anything when it comes to science and rfk. I don't trust it. Like you said, his whole process and way of reasoning through this makes no sense. Here's a guy who hates big Pharma. He's clearly on testosterone.
-
Unknown A
He clearly takes pharmaceutical grade testosterone. Why is it, oh, all the big pharma stuff is poisoning you, except the one that I really like this. You saw this on the right. When they would play up the monoclonal antibodies during COVID but on the vaccine they're like, I'm against big pharma, so I'm against the vaccine. Do you like monoclonal antibodies? Yeah, I like monoclonal. Who do you think makes that? Who do you think makes that?
-
Unknown B
It's so preposterous.
-
Unknown A
Is it, is it pet smart? Like, what is wrong with you people? So that's my, I agree with you. That's my problem with these people, especially when it comes to rfk. He just believes in junk science. He thinks raw milk is healthier than pasteurized milk. That is literally, objectively 100 incorrect. And the fact that you got to the place where you thought that was true tells me your brain does not work well. So I, you know, I don't know if you want to blame that on the worm or just say the dude has a horrible thought process and isn't that bright. However he got there, I don't care. So I agree with you when it comes to Bernie and when it comes to RFK for sure.
-
Unknown B
Remember Christopher Hitchens?
-
Unknown A
Of course. Yeah.
-
Unknown B
Yeah. Because, you know, everyone loved those new atheist stuff and those debates and stuff. And Hitchens was, was one of the stronger guys. He was a big, he was very in favor of the Iraq war, as you're aware. But the, the 2008 election, people would come up to be like, hey, Obama is running. He's, he's, he's obviously in favor of the Afghanistan war, but he's against the Iraq war. He's running against the Iraq war. So why are you going to vote for Obama? And he, he said something to the effect of, and he had probably other reasons as well because he was kind of a left wing guy. Hard to categorize. He, you know, John McCain is a cancer patient who is close to death and Sarah Palin is nuts and something to this effect. Right. And I don't trust, like her brain. I don't want her to be in the presidency.
-
Unknown B
Not because, which, although I'm sure he had a lot of policy disagreements, but because she is not a serious person.
-
Unknown A
Right.
-
Unknown B
I think that that is the kind of attitude that even if you agree with some things in RFK or even if you agree fuck on defunding some of this Doge stuff, if the process is, you can't predict what's going to come down the line. You don't know what kind of economic crisis is going to occur. We are installing people, human beings and structures and systems that need to be plastic and responsive to the next crisis. And for that reason we should be principally against things like Doge as a structural matter. We should be against people at RFK who are not based in fact truth and have a good process as a structure. Even if they say some good things about food, which I, I think people just sort of don't interrogate that closely enough. But even, even assuming that you agree.
-
Unknown A
With that, you know, we could use those New atheists for the vaccine debates.
-
Unknown B
Yeah.
-
Unknown A
You know, it's like, and you look at somebody like Richard Dawkins these days, who I used to love, love the book, the God delusion, etc. And it's like we Anti Vax nonsense has blown up so thoroughly online and we could use more voices that know what they're talking about pushing back on it. And unfortunately you see Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins sort of get lost in the weeds of other issues. Richard Dawkins is randomly obsessed with trans issues now. And it's like if we could have Hitchens and Dawkins and Sam Harris really head on taking on this Anti Vax lunacy, we'd be in a much better place because unfortunately the people who are right on the issue of the vaccine, many of us are like, that's just not the main thing that we're talking about. We're just not, you know, and then it leaves this misleading impression of people, particularly online where they feel like, oh, the anti Vax people are right.
-
Unknown A
Because everybody I see online is telling me that the Anti Vax people are right, when in reality it's like the dumbest people in the world. Jimmy Dore wouldn't know a scientific fact if it hit him over the head like an anvil.
-
Unknown B
But, but here's the thing and something that, I totally agree with you. One of the benefits of the New atheists was they were very steeped in a lot of those issues.
-
Unknown A
Right.
-
Unknown B
And it actually is very tough to fight some of this conspiratorial. And I'll, I'll give you an example. The barisma stuff on Hunter B.
-
Unknown A
Yes.
-
Unknown B
That was just a bu.
-
Unknown A
It was just a bu. I fell for it. I thought it was true. Originally I was like, yeah, hunter got whatever $400,000 for it. Totally made up.
-
Unknown B
It was totally made up following, following along these weeds. For me, it actually was a Ton of research. Because I debate some of the people. I debated the guy, Garrett Ziegler, he was actually the guy who released Hunter Biden laptop. It's just a hard drive, a copy of purportedly a laptop. So, you know, I. For me, these nuances matter a lot because, you know, he's actually being sued by Hunter Biden now and all that stuff. But it comes up in these debates. And I debated him on whether or not there was any evidence of Joe Biden's criminality. He sounded like a idiot. But in order to be at the stage where I was competent enough to be like, no, that email from Victoria Nuland dated that time isn't praising Victor Shokin. Um, it's talking about the previous. You know, it's all these names that for you, people's eyes start to glaze over, like, who's Victor Shokin?
-
Unknown B
Who's Yanukovych? Who's.
-
Unknown A
Right.
-
Unknown B
And. But to do that, it took a lot of work and effort and me reading the documents of the emails between different members of the state departments and going through all these bullshit, you know, Devin Hunt. Hunt. Sorry, Hunter. Devin Nunes. No, not Nunes. Devin Archer's testimony and all these different people. Right, okay. And same thing with vaccines. It's actually tough if you were to have a debate with one of these people, unless you're steeped in these issues, unless you've prepared to be like, oh, I haven't heard that. And they come up with such bullshit so quickly, and it's easy for them to say. It's hard to debunk. And so that's why we need effective, strong people who are steeped in the issues, like Crystal, like Kyle, like people who, I think, who take the time to get in the weeds and don't embarrass themselves when they're on these platforms and you have no confidence.
-
Unknown B
And even Kamala Harris. Right. Like, I thought that she. I was very impressed by a lot of things she said. But. But we don't have confidence that she's going to walk into Joe Rogan and. And be a killer. Right?
-
Unknown A
Yeah.
-
Unknown B
Who are our killers? Who are people that we. We send them. Those. Those are our. Those are our guys. Right?
-
Unknown A
Yeah. And you got to be willing. Like, I feel like it's very uncommon to be willing to stand up to a wave that's taking over the Internet, unfortunately. That's uncommon. I wish it was more common. I wish people had the balls to do it. But, you know, there was a time when being anti vaccine was like the thing online. Right. The people who went anti vax got tremendous views for spewing their bullshit. And it takes a specific kind of person who can not give a what other people are saying about them, not engage too much with negative comments online. It takes a very specific mindset to be able to go in there, take that on, stand on business, not make concessions and make the argument and then get out of dodge and be totally fine. And it is very, very rare. And you're seeing this, I think this is happening a lot in the Trump era.
-
Unknown A
And this actually leads directly to my next question. This is happening a lot in the Trump era when it comes to both old media and new media, where in old media, even the outlets that were typically pro Democrat, anti Republican, like msnbc, you are seeing a shift among them. Like, first of all, they're being spun off as their own thing. They're no longer going to be under the NBC umbrella and that's really, really bad for them. Right. But also you see Joe and Mika go to Mar A Lago. They had previously called Trump Hitler. Now they're having lunch with him and asking for like a reset in their relationship. So MSNBC looks like they're going to go more the route of false equivalence now between democrats and Republicans.
-
Unknown B
CNN's been there, CNN's been there.
-
Unknown A
And I think they're going to double and triple down on that because they also want access. You see this with the Washington Post and the LA Times where they've literally had some op EDS that were criticism of Trump's transition because these people are afraid that, oh my God, he's going to raise my taxes or take away my government contract or whatever it may be.
-
Unknown B
And in the Washington Post specifically, the billionaire in charge, actually in both, both the L A Times and the Washington Post, the billionaires in charge of those entities, like vetoing the endorsement. That's right out of fear for, for their bottom lines, not just necessarily like the industry's bottom line.
-
Unknown A
You have Jeff Bezos going to Mar A Lago and giving Trump a million dollar check for his inauguration. Jeff Bezos owns the Washington Post, Right. So that's old media. But then when you look at new media, you're seeing, you know, a very similar thing where, I mean, I think Cenk means it, I think that he thinks this is the path forward. But he feels like, hey, I resisted Trump from 2016 until recently. I feel like that didn't work. What if you can't beat him, join him in the sense that, let me pick these issues that I think will actually Work with the MAGA base and work together and try to get this stuff accomplished. But functionally, at the same time, what you're doing is lending credibility and credence to, to MAGA that maybe they're actually interested in anti corruption politics, maybe they're actually interested in anti war politics.
-
Unknown A
And I think that gives them way too much credit given the track record that we already have. So what do you make of this? To me, I've never seen a media landscape look more dire other than like literally during the beginning, the lead up to the Iraq war and the beginning of the Iraq war where if you opposed it, you were axed. Phil Donahue had the number one show and was axed because he was against the Iraq war. Jesse Ventura lost his show because he was against the Iraq war. And it was, everything was in unison. Everything was like, look, this is, this is what this era is. This is what everybody believes. And you could, you have to color within the lines, but the parameters are very narrow. Right. And I feel like that's what's happening this time. Do you fear that this is like one of the worst moments for media that you've ever seen?
-
Unknown A
Because I definitely am there, yeah.
-
Unknown B
So like, I don't think you're being histrionic at all. I don't think that you're exaggerating at all. It's a bad time. And I think it should not be construed what you're saying against new media in like the moments we've kind of had a little, you know, sides of people, old media's, they don't know what they're doing and they've been out of touch. They've been useless idiots, talking heads and that stuff. So it is both and it is dire because. And one of the reasons why I'm. I'm drawn to certain personalities, frankly is because they sound basic and they sound unapologetic. But right now they're not the norm and they're far and few between, it feels like. And so I'm coveting preciously the people who I see as being people who would speak truth to power. It feels like with Jake, I was praising him because.
-
Unknown B
And even criticizing myself because when Biden announced it was a mistake and I, and I believed it was a mistake, but I kind of took it as a fait accompli. I was like, I'm not going to make a big. Not that I'm. Who. Who am I? I'm no one, but just in general where I wasn't dwelling on it, but he did and he was right to dwell on it. And he, and I think he had foresight. And I think that there's a lot of personal grievance in terms of the Democrats don't give him his due. Maybe he feels that way. And I think that he had a lot of foresight and he's been right on some key issues. And it feels like there's a time lag between where, where is this attitude of reconciliation and bridge building when it came to Biden or when it came to all these other moments in time or hell, even in 2016, the fact that it seems now, it seems anachronistic, not consistent with the pattern that we're seeing.
-
Unknown B
And so, yeah, I think it's a dire moment. And I think that one of the reasons there's been such a strong reaction, Tyt, and frankly Cenk, is because he was seen as one of the, the few figures we had that would like, give voice to his opposition. Even though I disagree on some policy stuff with him, as I disagree with some policy stuff on you. But I feel like you haven't lost the plot and I feel like you haven't fallen for the swan song of right wing populism, which should be our enemies. Like, right wing populism is not left wing populism. There they are things to fear. I mean, right wing populism is a completely different brand of politics and a way to do things. And so, yeah, I agree it's dire. And I think that we need to close ranks with the people who are based.
-
Unknown A
I think they got, and I'm curious your thoughts on this. I think they got tired of resisting because in 2016, until very recently, that was his posture, right? His posture was, we're the home of progressives. You know, the idea was, and this I think made perfect sense, hey, Hillary Clinton won the popular vote by 3 million votes, even though she wasn't a great candidate. So Trump winning was kind of a fluke. And so let's just resist. And he did that for so long. And in his mind he feels like, well, this didn't work. Trump ended up still winning. So he's like recalibrating and trying to get a different approach. Whereas I literally had the exact same reaction both times compared to him. Where in 2016, my thought was maybe maybe we could find some anti corruption stuff, some anti war stuff, et cetera. And so, you know, I was critical of when Tyt was going after Trump over Russiagate.
-
Unknown A
I was even critical of that. I was like, I don't think this is True. Why are you going after him over the.
-
Unknown B
Right, we'll talk about that.
-
Unknown A
Yeah. We could have that debate a different time, but this time around, it's like all of my patience, all of my empathy, all of my, hey, maybe we can find some areas where maybe we could work this out, etcetera, all that is gone. Right? And I don't know how else to say, dude, if they were gonna turn on him, if they were gonna hold him accountable, if they were actually anti war, if they were actually anti corruption, if they were actually pro worker, they literally wouldn't have supported him this time because he's already been outed as a fraud. So now I feel like I'm gonna miss the days of the 2016 resistance, where that's gonna be. That was much harder resistance than we're about to get right now. And that scares me because the way political eras work, there comes a time where the culture and the body politic decides, we can't beat him.
-
Unknown A
We got to join them. That's what FDR had with the New Deal consensus, and it lasted a very long time until Carter. But really with Reagan is when Reagan killed it off completely. Then we had the Reagan consensus, which I would argue we're still under to one extent or another. Biden was the first one to break from that a little bit. And now I feel like we're right into a new Trump consensus, which is going to be, despite what anybody else thinks about populist. Right? No, it's going to be George W. Bush on steroids, Ronald Reagan on steroids. Going to be tax cuts for the rich. It's going to be deregulation. It's going to be destroying the regulatory state. It's going to be more war. It's going to be every horrible thing about Reagan.
-
Unknown B
And what's the authoritarianism. Yeah, no, on that. Totally agreed. And I like the way you broke down those eras. I think that that's. That's true. And you must be feeling whiplash at the different postures to Trump. What I want to put out there is it's not too late. I think the bridge building needs to happen. Are people like, with people like me.
-
Unknown A
Right.
-
Unknown B
I think. Agreed. And libs. Right. People who identify more as lives, who are very sympathetic to a lot of the policy goals, maybe they're a little bit more willing to. To cut, you know, to make some sacrifices for the greater good or whatever. At the end of the day, I'm a pragmatist before I'm an ideologue. And I would love to make bridges with people who are more left wing. That's where I would see the consensus to be. That's where I feel like the, the bridges should be had is to get rid of the bad blood. But at this point, I don't know. I hope it happens. I don't believe it's to be too late. I do believe that Tyt could recognize, I don't know if they will do it, that this posture is a mistake. And if they do that and if they're willing to be like hey maybe this was wrong and maybe it'll take some time and some painful lessons, I will welcome them back with open arms and say let's just fight together against Trump and against these, you know, billionaire dark MAGA oligarchs because we need everyone in the fight right
-
Unknown B
now. So, so I put it out there. I'm very harsh on Tank on Twitter. You see me, I'm like quote tweeting like you said this at one time and it's, and frankly I'm, I'm pestering him because I want him, I want Tyt, I want these, this group of people that support him to get the right ideas, not the wrong ideas and to be on as part of the team. And, and I think that I'm willing to break bread people like, who I find policy wise, reprehensible like Liz Cheney and Dick Cheney because I see the opposition to Trump as now I don't necessarily think that was a good tactic for Kamala to take. Okay, so, so, but, but, but for me the line that I don't, I'm not going to cross is allegiance to MAGA and right wing populism. They are the enemy as far as I'm concerned and the, the tech billionaires that support them.
-
Unknown B
And so I think the left wing needs to, we don't need to be, be Bush era Republicans. We don't need to cue to the right. We just need to be in a forceful and unapologetic opposition and to, and frankly to put forth a vision that people care about. I think the country is in a more populist mood and I think some of these reforms, you know, take the lead of aoc, take the lead of Bernie on a lot of key issues I think that would be based but we have to have the strength to do it and to not surrender in advance.
-
Unknown A
100% agree. To me it's not about Liz Cheney or Dick Cheney or those types of people. The ones to me it's all about and I've seen this on my own Channel, too. There are MSNBC refugees just looking for a home now because they feel like, oh, my God, MSNBC betrayed me. Look at what Joe did, look at what Mika did. Look at how they're changing the direction and they're going to do false equivalents. Did you mean the stuff you said the first four years or did you not mean it? And they feel like they've been had and these people didn't mean it, so they're looking for a home. And in that, you are seeing this sort of alliance between left wingers and liberals and independents, where that's your future right there. It's got nothing to do with the populist right because the populist right is fake.
-
Unknown A
They call J.D. vance populist right. He didn't even show up to vote on an expansion of the child tax credit when he said he was in favor of that. He's not for the pro act. He dodged a question on raising the minimum wage when he was running as vice president. He's not remotely populous. Not even close. He's a venture capitalist. Like, what are we even talking about here?
-
Unknown B
So the shits on his hometown.
-
Unknown A
Yeah, like, yeah, yeah, that, that. What was it called? Hillbilly elegy. I watched that. That's actually disturbing because it's very like, blame the poor and the working class for all their problems. It's actually the opposite of what populist politics is, which would be talk about get together, unionize. It's more about class, et cetera. But that's what I'm seeing from these MSNBC refugees. You even saw this on Pod Save America, where they were. Their own audience of liberals was criticizing them because they felt like, hey, you had Kamala's campaign staffers in there and you were asking them questions.
-
Unknown B
What the.
-
Unknown A
They didn't have good answers and you didn't hold them accountable. And, like, they were sort of fed up. And they're like, well, you know, the Bernie Sanders types, they seem to have answers. They seem to say, like, this is what we need to do to win. And so what you're seeing is that's the coalition. The coalition is liberals and leftists and independents. It's got nothing to do with the fake populist right. It's got nothing to do with maga. Like you said, we need to be crystal clear who the enemy is at this point. Because what Trump proved, by the way, Trump, if somebody disagrees with Trump 1%, he beheads them, as Cenk would say. He breaks their spine and drinks their spinal fluid and Guess what he was able to get away with mimicking fellatio on a mic on stage. He was able to get away with talking about Arnold Palmer's cock.
-
Unknown A
He was able to say immigrants are eating cats and dogs. He was like, the fact that he could say all that stuff, say, I'm going to arrest all of my political opponents, like, lock up my political opponents, deploy the military on our streets. The fact he was able to get away with that means what? That as long as he had a narrative that he came home to, and his narrative is terrible and wrong and bad, immigrants are the problem, trans people are the problem, et cetera. Right. The fact that he kept coming back to that. He got enough votes to win. And what we need to do is say, no, we have a counter vision. This is bullshit. This is nonsense. He's not going to fix the country. Things are going to be way worse off underneath him. And the robber baron is going to run out the back door with all the money.
-
Unknown A
But that's where the problem is. The problem is with the billionaires and the corporations and how they've rigged our political system for them and against regular people. And that's the future. And like you, I want everybody to be on that same page, understanding that mission number one is to call out the bullshit of MAGA every single step of the way, because that's exactly what it's going to be for four years. And we need all hands on deck.
-
Unknown B
Yeah, it's going to be a brutal slog, 100%, and we need to start identifying now. And this is the good work of, like, identifying who we're gonna support, who among the Democrats in their coalition, you know, they. They gained a seat in the House. Who do we trust to be standard bearers for. For the future? And for me, I am so constantly impressed by aoc. I think she walks a line of progressive policy, but also connecting to an audience. And she learned to play the game a little bit, and she's been burned by some of the. The insiders. I feel like, in a way that's unfair and not good. And I want to put my trust in killers and people who are willing to take the message and who are not going to apologize and seem weak and frail and frankly, sometimes old, geriatric. I mean, we had this story about this Republican who was like, literally, what's her.
-
Unknown B
Was she out of Texas?
-
Unknown A
Yeah, yep, Texas. I'm blanking on her name right now, but I covered it. Yeah, she was in a dementia home.
-
Unknown B
I heard you say this, and I was like, is so true. We need an ideological shift and a generational shift. It's both. It actually is both. And we need to give away power in the democracy to people who are younger, people who are more dynamic, people who are able to carry the load, frankly, and bring a new message to a base that's reinvigorated by their dynamism and force and strength. That's what I want. And, and that's why I like, you know, people like you who aren't apologizing and surrendering in advance, frankly.
-
Unknown A
I mean, yeah, it's all, it's about people who believe in something. Right. And, you know, this is a point I've made a thousand times since the election, is if we just were able to get Build Back Better through, if we were able to put Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin in line, whip their votes, get the original Build Back Better plan through, I think Kamala would have won. And so we need, that's the message. We, we were so close. We were this close to paid family leave, child care, universal pre K free community college, expanding Medicare, higher minimum wage, lowering all prescription drug prices, and expanded child tax credit. We were this close to that. If that passed, I think the Democrats would have won. And like, this is the argument, this is the point, this is what we should be talking about. And with that, you need to pair it with ruthlessly explaining how these people at MAGA are frauds.
-
Unknown A
They're frauds. It's all about the robber barons looting the Treasury. I think we might be in a position where Trump is gonna up so hard and so bad that it honestly might be a situation where literally any Democratic candidate will win by default. You know what I mean? Where Trump's heir apparent, whether it be J.D. vance or Trump Jr. And by the way, I'm convinced it's gonna be one of those two. I think it's going to be either J.D. vance or Trump Jr. I know DeSantis still wants it. Ted Cruz still wants it. I don't think they're likely to get it. Do you agree with that? That they're about to shit up so bad that as long as the Democrat has a pulse, they'll end up. And maybe even if they don't have a pulse.
-
Unknown B
I think I see where you're going with that. I think I see where you're going with that. Which is it would be a mistake in resting on our laurels to, if that occurs, to just go with the generic Democrat. And it's very short sight. Maybe this is what you're going to. But it seems a little short sighted to just take advantage of the fact that, that structural advantage and just run anyone or run just another one of these Biden people when we would have an advantage, I think, to, to have a positive vision that is different and dynamic. But I don't know if. Yeah, I, I think that it might be the case. You know, I hope the country doesn't get up, but I'm gonna, I'm expecting it. I think that they're gonna it up.
-
Unknown A
Yeah. Oh, definitely. And I think, I honestly, I think this is the good news. I think come 2028, it's going to be wide open. It's going to be exactly like what the 2008 primary was, where you had Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden and shit, there were so many, but I'm blanking on them right now. John Edwards. Yeah, he was, he was 08. That's right. You had this wide open primary and that's where you got Barack Obama from, who's sort of a unique political talent. And I think the, going into 2028, people might feel like, oh, like Gavin Newsom is, is leading in terms of like, oh, he's the one. But remember, in 08, on the Republican side before the primary, Rudy Giuliani was leading by like double digits and everybody thought he was the one. He's going to, it's cakewalk.
-
Unknown B
America's lead in 2012. Jeb Bush had a lead in 2016.
-
Unknown A
Exactly. So. And I think, I think that's a positive. I think that's a good thing. I think we're worse off when there's hierarchical thinking. When like, oh, it's your turn. Well, it was, it was John McCain's turn and he ended up losing. Right? It was Hillary Clinton's turn.
-
Unknown B
Connolly ended up losing. He. What's that he said, didn't he say, I never had a turn? Did you make a video?
-
Unknown A
Yes, he did. He was like, it's my turn. I never had my chance. That's what he said.
-
Unknown B
That needs to die, that needs to go.
-
Unknown A
I think we're getting there, though. I mean, look, I don't know about Democratic leadership in the House and the Senate, but I will say for this 2028 Democratic primary, I do think it's wide open in that respect that there is going to be no. Oh, it's, you know, whoever the media tells us because like we just discussed, I think liberals have lost faith in the media when they feel like even MSNBC is gone now. So it will be Wide open. And that, that's, that opens up the door for a lot of beautiful possibilities.
-
Unknown B
And who I want to see is a winner. I'm going to be looking for people who, like I said, I'm a pragmatist before, I'm an ideologue. I want someone who is going to take the fight to Trump and whoever his heir apparent is. I actually do think that it may be JD can you still see me, by the way? My computer just.
-
Unknown A
I can see.
-
Unknown B
I think it probably will be someone like J.D. vance or Donald Trump Jr. Because I think they're not going to know anything else to do and they're going to get stuck in their kind of hierarchical. His turn, those structures as well.
-
Unknown A
Right.
-
Unknown B
And, and I think that that is they don't have the same genesis quoi that.
-
Unknown A
Right.
-
Unknown B
That Trump does. And they're not going to capitalize as much. And I want to make that contrast crystal clear. So like I said, I'm a pragmatist before, I'm an ideologue. And if who I think is the best killer, the best dynamic leader, the best strong leader is someone who is like a centrist badass, maybe I'll support them. But I think more than likely it's going to come from someone in the vein of AOC or someone in the vein of some something other House Democrats at all. I'll release it a later date, but I do think that there's going to be a wide open race here and I'm not going to just assume that it should be Kamala Harris again or that it should be Gavin Newsome or Pete Buttigieg, who I, I think is willing to take the fight in some of these areas. But I'm not going to just, I'm going to come in with a fresh mind, open mind, and make my decision on who to support based on the candidate qualities and not what someone tells me on, you know, the news.
-
Unknown A
Yeah, agreed.