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Unknown A
So this is January 6th. These are the hostages. So this is a big one.
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Unknown B
Biden has pardoned more people than all the prior presidents put together. I don't know what to make of it. They lost, as you said, the moral high ground. I agree with J.D. vance that anybody who hit a police officer should not be pardoned.
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Unknown C
I never thought I'd share a panel with a violent insurrectionist, but this is America.
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Unknown D
Look, dude, I didn't storm anything. I entered the building illegally to stop vandalism, violence, and theft. And I literally stood in front of an angry mob and told everybody to go home because Donald Trump said to go home. I played his video tweet on my megaphone. None of this was said in the media. The narrative was the house of cards.
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Unknown E
Trump says they're hostages. They're only victims of their own actions. When you put a blanket pardon like this, it is offensive.
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Unknown F
My heart goes out to him because to me, he was a victim.
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Unknown D
Allow me to apologize to the police on behalf of all J6ers and all Trump supporters for what happened to you guys on that day.
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Unknown F
I've met Jacob in person. What the media told us about this guy. He's a monster. He did this. I met him in person. I interviewed him. Amazing guy.
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Unknown G
You are condemning the watchers who committed acts of violence.
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Unknown D
Now you're starting to think for yourself.
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Unknown F
Yes, Pierce, it looked bad, but you know what? You believe the system's cheating you. You go to the system and you protest. These people felt like they were cheated. And you know what? They were.
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Unknown H
No, I applaud President Trump for doing that. They were political prisoners. There will be, from time to time, stupid, crazy people who overdo it, and they should be held accountable. Trump saw that it was all bullshit. Can you say that on your show?
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Unknown G
You can. It's uncensored. Say what you like.
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Unknown H
Well, then, you know Trump is fucking cold.
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Unknown G
Well, we Brits take a lot of flak from across the pond for our peculiar system of government. The king is our commander in chief, and he ultimately gets the final say on every law and every government. But of course, it doesn't really work like that. Politicians call the shots, and the monarch pulls the trigger. He has no direct power that comes anywhere close to the presidential pardon, a positively kingly command that has dominated debate in America in the final days of Biden and the first days of President Trump. The new president has delivered on his promise to pardon what he calls the hostages of January 6th. About 1500 defendants are cleared, including, wrongly, in my view, the violent offenders it ends what became the biggest criminal investigation in FBI history.
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Unknown A
I've already served a long period of time and I made a decision to give a pardon. Joe Biden gave a pardon yesterday to a lot of criminals. These are criminals he gave a pardon to. And you should be asking that question. Why did he give a pardon to all of these people that committed crimes? Why did he give a pardon to the J6 unselect committee?
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Unknown G
Well, that gets to the heart of the debate here. I've made my feelings clear on January 6th many times. Those were deeply unedifying scenes for America. There's no doubt that some people who found themselves in the wrong place at the wrong moment were very harshly treated, overly harshly. There's also no doubt that some of the writers behaved like viciously violent thugs and deserved to be sent to jail for considerable periods of time. But as Trump says, they were sent to jail for their crimes. Joe Biden's vast wave of parting pardons, including a notorious cop killer, I mean, we can never find out if some of his allies or relatives ever committed crimes in the first place. First, there was Hunter, his son completely insulated for prosecution in the manner that Joe Biden swore he, he would never do. Next, in his final moments came most of Biden's family, along with the J6 committee and Dr.
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Unknown G
Fauci, too. Biden says this was necessary because he fears the weaponization of a justice system for political means. But maybe the reason he fears it is the four year law fair on Trump, which came from Democrats. Well, the J6 pardons are worth debating, and we will. But Democrats might find that the moral high ground has fallen beneath them and that Joe Biden has dug the hole. Now we'll debate with my panel a moment which includes a former Capitol policeman serving on January 6th and someone who's just been pardoned by President Trump. But before that, I'm joined by the historian and author of the End of Everything, Victor Davis Hanson. Victor, great to have you back on uncensored. Thank you. There's a lot going on with these pardons. Obviously, the actual idea of a presidential pardon is not new. Every president does it in varying degrees and varying numbers.
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Unknown G
But what do you make of two things here? Well, we'll start with Biden, Biden doing all these pre emptive pardons before we've even seen any evidence of crimes being committed or potentially court cases to adjudicate whether they've been committed or any potential prosecutions. What do you feel about that as a principle and how, how much of that has gone on in the past.
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Unknown B
Well, that's only happened one time in American history. That was Jerry Ford's preemptive pardon of Richard Nixon. And so if you look at all of the pardons through the Biden tenure, Biden has pardoned more people than all the prior presidents put together. So it's just. It's not just the nature, but it's the magnitude. Some of them, as you pointed out, were egregious. Mr. Peltier killed, murdered two FBI agents, and that sentence was commuted. So. And then the same people who are damning Trump right now for pardoning people were the ones, of course, that said preemptive pardons were a violation of the spirit of the Constitution. So I. I don't know what to make of it. They lost, as you said, the moral high ground. There's another issue, though, and that on the January 6th is that from May 28th all the way to October, there was almost 120, 30 days of continuous riot, arson, $2 billion in property damage, 35 people were killed.
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Unknown B
And we talk about police officers. 1500 police officers allegedly were injured or reported injuries, and we had $2 billion in damage. And of those 14,000 people who were arrested, about 90% of them were not even charged. And so that was, that was an egregious.
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Unknown G
I think you're talking about the blm. The BLM protest after the death. Blm after the murder of George Floyd.
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Unknown H
Yeah.
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Unknown B
Yes. They even tried to. People talk about the Capitol, but unfortunately, these iconic monuments are not sacrosanct. They tried to rush the. They burned. They tried to burn down the historic St. John's Episcopal Church across from the White House. They tried to go into the White House grounds. They put the president into a bunker with a Secret Service at that time. The New York Times the next day said, cowardly Trump flees to bunker. So there is an asymmetry about the whole discussion. And Ms. Talib took over the rotunda in connection with the demonstrations on October 11, and she had all of her supporters swarm into the capital. Waitanda. And then she gave a fiery denunciation of Israel. I think a person could legitimately call it pro Hamas. Disrupted everything. No one ever said this was a, a forced takeover of the rotunda, which it was.
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Unknown B
So we're, we're seeing a, A radical asymmetric. And that's, that's the. I'm not, I'm. I agree with J.D. vance that anybody who hit a police officer or used violence should not be pardoned.
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Unknown G
Yeah.
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Unknown B
But that was a very small minority. And what has gone on in this country and the unequal or asymmetrical application of justice, from lawfare to trying to remove the president off the ballot, to impeaching him twice, to trying him as a. That's all of this has never happened before. And so you can see that we'll see what there's going to be. And just today, Congressman Comer said that they have uncovered new information that directly ties Joe Biden to being a recipient of maybe not just 20 million, but $30 million. And so all of these Biden family members have been given preemptive pardons. I don't know if it's going to help all of them because under our law, once you have a preemptive pardon, you are not excused from crimes that are committed after knowingly after that pardon, and you cannot plead the Fifth. So if one of these people is brought in and testifies falsely, then they could be charged with perjury.
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Unknown B
But any crime that is found, we didn't know about, but it's discovered up until the time of the pardon their pardoned from.
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Unknown G
Fascinating overview of it all. I mean, in terms of Joe Biden's legacy, do you think the scale of his pardoning and the extra dimension of all these preemptive pardons, do you think that's trashed his legacy?
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Unknown B
Yeah, I think he was in big trouble before that because it's pretty clear that people who were disparaged and slandered for saying that there was a strange way in which he was nominated. In other words, within about 30 days, all of the primary candidates in 2020 dropped out. Many of them, like Cory Booker or Pete Buttigieg, had said on the debate stage that he was cognitively challenged. Then he came into office, and then for the next four years that dementia accelerated. But anybody who wrote, and I can speak personally about that was severely attacked by suggesting that you were ageist or you were engaging in deep fakes, which is, you know, I can understand that they want to protect the president. But then as soon as the election was over, then we had this outpouring from the New York Times and the Washington, The Wall Street Journal, 50 sources, they all knew about it.
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Unknown B
So it was a more egregious cover up than what Edith Wilson did in the last year and a half of Wilbur Wilson when he was non compos mentes with a stroke. No president. We thought we'd never do that again. That was an infamous incident in US History, but we trumped that, so to speak.
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Unknown G
It is staggering.
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Unknown B
That's what led into this, yeah, even without this, that would have been bad, right? This was a force multiplier.
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Unknown G
When you see the state of Joe Biden now where he really, every public appearance is kind of cringe worthy because of his cognitive and physical state, the idea that he could have run for another four years is absurd, isn't it? I mean, that was clearly just a massive lie that the Democrats perpetrated on the American people for a considerable period of time. There's absolutely no way that man could have been the commander in chief of the United States for the next four years. And they knew that for, I would think up to two years before they did.
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Unknown B
But they had used him as sort of a waxen effigy. In other words, people from the Obama administration and the circle of Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, what I would call the hard left of the country, actually enjoyed the fact that he was not cognitively alert because he had, remember, had campaigned as the Uniter and they returned to moderation in the end of the chaos. And then when he came in, he was no longer old Joe from Scranton, the moderate. He was the most radically progressive president we've ever had since fdr, more so. And he opened it wasn't. The border was porous, it was non existent. We had the Soros crime wave, Afghanistan, two theater wars, hyperinflation one year, 9% so. And that was all a result of people putting policies in under this image or veneer. And I think he was sort of appointed by the insiders of the Democratic Party.
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Unknown B
He lived by an appointment and he, so to speak metaphorically, he died by a deposal by the same people.
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Unknown G
You're a constitutional expert. Are all these pardons both by Biden and now by Trump, are they all actually constitutional?
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Unknown B
Yes, they are. And it's under our system we've had people who've kind of winked and nod. I think Liz Cheney and General Milley and others have said, well, I wouldn't want one. Why would I need it? Because if I. Because the left remember when Trump, Trump threatened to do this when he was leaving office and they said, do not preemptively pardon. These people are being arrested the last two weeks of his tenure. So he didn't do it. But the left came out on record and said, if anybody is pardoned by Donald Trump under this new preemptive pardon, it is an admission of guilt. And so that came up again and they said, well, we don't really, we don't really want it. But the nature of American pardons are it doesn't Matter what the recipient says, he can say, I don't want it, I don't accept it.
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Unknown B
But legally he is pardoned and no prosecutor will touch him. So they try to. I think another thing people don't realize, they say, well, Trump is going after the J6 committee. But if you look at very carefully what Liz Cheney did and I liked, I've met her, I like her. I'm not trying to. You don't. Under American jurisprudence, you cannot call a witness up and ask if their lawyer is in the room and then try to question her about her upcoming testimony. That's called, you know, tampering with a witness, and that is a felony. There is the allegation by Trump and I don't know when has adjudicated exactly what records were destroyed or missing. So there was. There was legitimate concern. We do. And General Milley is the same question. We have a law, it's on statute, that Uniform Code of Military Justice, Article 88, which we retired and present flag officer.
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Unknown B
So you shall not disparage the commander in chief. Well, General Milley called him a fascist. And the greatest danger I could go on, there's about 11 officers who did that. But more importantly, when he contacted his Chinese counterpart to warn him that in his diagnosis of Donald Trump, he felt Donald Trump as commander in chief was too unstable. And he would warn. He did that on two occasions, his Chinese PLA counterpart first before he carried out an order that was, I think, bordering on treason. And more importantly, he violated the chain of command. Under the Joint Chief statute. A chairman of the Joint Chief is an advisory role. He cannot interfere legally with the chain of command. And the theater commanders report directly to the Department of Defense head. And General Milley said to all the theater commanders, if we get in a crisis, you come, you talk to me first before they.
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Unknown B
And that was a violation of code. So he could be. He would have been. I think if there was a disinterested, he would have been court martialed. He should have been before.
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Unknown G
Fascinating. And finally, Victor, you started by saying that there's only been one preemptive pardon. It was Ford to Nixon. I want to end with another president to president moment. That didn't happen, but many think should have happened. Should Joe Biden have pardoned Donald Trump, given that most people view his criminal conviction for the Stormy Daniels business as ridiculous?
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Unknown B
I think he should have. I'll just end with this. This factotum that almost within 48 hours, Fanny Willis's paramore, who was a lead prosecutor in Georgia, was in the White House meeting with the White House counsel within a 48 hour period in which Jack Smith was appointed a federal Prosecutor within a 48 hour period that Mr. Co Angelo, who had come from the Letitia James prosecution in New York, came in as third ranking in the DOJ. And that 48 hour period left to go back to Alvin Bragg. And so when Joe Biden was complaining that they weren't doing enough to prosecute, actually what was happening, his White House counsel and his DOJ were coordinating these local, state and federal prosecutions. And just to finish, there were three things about all of them that I think in retrospect, any historian who's honest will admit those crimes, quote, unquote, will never be applied to anybody else about real estate valuations on a loan that was functioning and the bank had no problem, or what every disgruntled candidate calls up the registrar and says, I know there's votes there, can you recount them?
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Unknown B
And then two, had Donald Trump just said, you know, I don't want to run for a third time, he would have never been in any of these courtrooms. And third, if he hadn't been Donald Trump, he wouldn't. And everybody knows that in the United States now. And it's going to be a stain. And I hope that Donald Trump, when he said he doesn't want to do that to his enemies, I hope if there are any investigations, they don't come out of the Pam Bondi Donald Trump connection. If they are, they're going to have to be independent, local or state or a special prosecutor. But I think that was wise of him to say and I hope he keeps to it.
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Unknown G
Yeah, I agree. Victor Davis Hansen, great to have you back. Thank you very much.
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Unknown B
Thank you.
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Unknown G
Well, to debate all this, I'm joined by PBD podcast's Angry patriot, Vinny Oshana, by Wajahat Ali, he's the host of Democracy Ish, by Jacob Chansley, formerly known as the Qanon Shaman who was just pardoned by Donald Trump and by a former Capitol police officer who was attacked on January 6th at the Capitol, Winston Pigeon. So thank you all for joining me, greatly appreciate it. Wajahad, let me start with you. How, how hamstrung do you feel about launching a full throttle attack, as I know you've been doing and are itching to do about Trump's abuse of the pardon system as you see it, given Joe Biden's obvious blatant abuse, which we've just heard from Victor Davis Hanson, unprecedented apart from when Ford pardoned Nixon, we've never seen preemptive pardons like this. How neutered do you feel? Do you feel like every time you try and go after Trump for this, everyone on the right will go, hang on, what about your guy?
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Unknown C
No, I'm not worried about that at all. And it's interesting that I never thought I'd be old enough to share a panel with a violent insurrectionist who voluntarily joined a mob incited by Trump to overthrow a free and fair election. But this is America. And to answer your question, Pierce, I actually wanna read very quickly some words by an author who I agree with, who shares my sentiments. I'm going to quote him very quickly. The Republican Senate cowards should hang their heads in shame. Pretending the Capitol riot wasn't a Trump inspired insurrection is as deluded as saying 911 had nothing to do with bin Laden's terrorism. The author continues, and I completely agree with this author that Donald Trump was the man whose ugly, violent rhetoric directly led to what happened on January 6. He took the most powerful megaphone in the world and he screamed at his enraged, unhitched, die hard fan base to go to the Capitol that day and fight for his presidency.
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Unknown C
That he lied about being stolen from him. So that's exactly what thousands of them did. Many of the rioters have said in their own words that it was Trump's command that drove him to the Congress. And finally, shame on Donald Trump for continuing to perpetrate, perpetuate a grotesque, inflammatory lie that threatens to imperil the very foundation of American democracy. End quote. That was you, Piers Morgan, four years ago in the Daily Mail. I share your sentiment.
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Unknown G
Yeah, it was me. That is what I wrote at the time. That is what I felt at the time. And I didn't think we'd ever see Donald Trump run for office again. I was wrong, not wrong. I wasn't wrong about the influence I expressed that day. I thought it was horrendous. However the pardons have happened. Jacob Chancellor, you became incredibly well known because of the image of you as a QAnon Shaman at the time. I believe you've now renounced QAnon. You're no longer a QAnon identifying person A. Is that correct? Can I just verify that with you?
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Unknown D
QAnon is a fiction created by the mockingbirds in the media to discredit Q and the Anons that follow Q. So I was never a part of any Qanon community. I've always just followed Q.
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Unknown G
What do you say to Wajahat who's just obviously let you have it with bells on and thinks that dangerous insurrectionists, as he put it, should never be pardoned in the way that they have been. What's your response?
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Unknown D
He's entitled to his opinion. I believe in freedom of speech, even if I disagree, especially if I disagree with what he says. He isn't allowed to be wrong in America. That's perfectly fine. I really don't care what he thinks. I know what the day was. I know what it was for me personally and what it's been for literally thousands of American families across this country. Having the government weaponized against you is the very thing that people on the left used to cry about all the time until they got in office and they were able to weaponize the government against their political opponents, which is exactly what happened. And the media did their bidding, too. They were their handmaiden. The real question we have to ask ourselves is what is the devious and nefarious hand inside of the government glove or has been inside the government glove for the last several decades, in the last four years that's doing all this to the American people and circumventing the Constitution in the name of a state of emergency?
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Unknown G
Okay. I mean, my question for you watching those scenes on January 6th, that day was surely no American, no American could watch those scenes and not think it was a shameful moment for America. Whatever the motivation for what was behind it, whatever people felt they'd been encouraged or otherwise to do by Donald Trump, the fact that a very large group of people basically tried to ransack the Capitol in the way that that happened, the home of democracy in America, those images went around the world and the world was genuinely horrified. Jacob, how do you feel when you look, when you look back at those images?
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Unknown D
Can I ask you a question?
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Unknown G
Sure, sure.
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Unknown D
Can I ask you a question?
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Unknown G
Sure.
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Unknown D
What would you do if you found out that the whole thing could have been prevented, was actually government orchestrated, and all the blood that happened on January 6th is on the hands of people like Nancy Pelosi, Yogananda Pittman, Mark Milley, all the people that Victor David Hansen just talked about, they're the ones that set this whole thing up. This thing has the fingerprints of regime change all over it. And our government has become expert level of regime change. The media wasn't talking Sergey to Binannin, the known Ukrainian spy that was in the crowd on that day, and actually asked to take a picture with me. As funny as that is, the FBI asked.
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Unknown G
Well, let me ask you before I go. Okay, Jacob, Hang on. Jacob, before I go to Winston to respond, because he was there. He was a police officer that day at the Capitol. But why were you doing it then? I mean, presumably you weren't told to do it by somebody from the FBI or any of these other theories that were being propagated since. What was your purpose in storming the Capitol that day? What did you want to achieve?
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Unknown D
You're asking me?
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Unknown G
Yes.
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Unknown D
What my purpose of storming the Capitol? Look, dude, I didn't storm anything. I entered the building illegally to stop vandalism, violence, and theft, which was proven all on video by me stopping somebody from stealing 30 seconds, getting into the building, volunteering to help the police. That's why I was escorted to the Senate chamber and also saying a prayer inside the chamber and then stopping people from breaking. When I was outside the building, I literally stood in front of an angry mob and told everybody to go home because Donald Trump said to go home. I played his tweet. I played his video tweet on my megaphone, told everybody to go home. I stood in front of an angry mob trying to break into the Capitol. And none of this was said in the media because their narrative was the House of Cards. I was their Achilles heel.
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Unknown D
And Tucker Carlson knew that, and that's why he aired that footage. And he totally destroyed the Mockingbird media's narrative about January 6th.
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Unknown G
Okay, let me go to Winston. You were there that day. You're a Capitol Police officer. What are your feelings about the fact that everyone involved has been pardoned, even the ones who were violent to police officers?
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Unknown E
I think it's very unfortunate that particularly those that were violent and who attacked both me and my fellow officers that day, are able to walk totally free. It sends a horrible message to Americans, to the world, to law enforcement. You know, not only Capitol Police, D.C. police, who have continued to show up every day, do their jobs in service to others, in service to the American people, to Congress, and, you know, it basically says that it's okay to do political violence against and, you know, beat police officers. There's. It says that there's nothing wrong with that.
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Unknown G
Do you think there's a.
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Unknown D
What says that that's okay is the BLM riots. It says that's okay is the Antifa riots. And there being no prosecutions. That's what says that's okay. It's attacking federal buildings and no prosecutions. That's what says that's okay. Forgive me for saying. I don't mean to interrupt, but the double standard, what Victor Davis Hansen was talking about, the asymmetrical justice system is on full display. And to deny that the Antifa and BLM riots didn't play a role in the demoralization of our police officers and the allowance of crime spree all across the country is just absolutely silly. The idea that that is not to blame is silly.
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Unknown G
Well, it's an interesting point, Winston, isn't it? What about ism, though?
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Unknown E
It's horrible, this. What about ism? I was a police officer for five years. I worked in 2020 this summer in DC. I will not condone any violence against police for whatever political cause, whether it was then on January 6th, and I'm glad we can agree on that.
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Unknown G
But.
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Unknown E
But the difference is that on January 6, it was not just a riot on the street. There were those like yourself that entered this building illegally and others who were violent against us. And it had never happened before. Not since the war of 1812 and 1814 when the British stormed the Capitol, had this ever happened. Not since civil war has been so divided.
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Unknown D
Allow me to apologize. Please allow me to apologize on behalf of all January Sixers and all Trump supporters for what happened to you guys. I don't know if that's happened on live television yet, but allow me to apologize to police on behalf of all J6ers and all Trump supporters for what happened to you guys on that day is absolutely terrible. And if you find out that your own Capitol Police people like Yogananda Pittman or Tom Manger, covering up what actually happened and the fact that they put you in harm's way, I think you guys have a vested interest in a class action lawsuit for your own work environment putting you guys in harm's way.
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Unknown E
I appreciate that apology. I think, though, the bigger picture is as an officer, we never victim blame. You know, when a crime is committed against somebody, it is not their fault. And it's more important to look at the bigger picture. Why was that crowd there that day? Who sent them? Who? What? You know, I remember people telling me that day on January 6th, President Trump sent us here. We are going to get in that building and thinking there's no way they're going to be so violent, so brutal to actually get past us and break inside. Until very shortly after, I'm seeing for my own eyes that I was wrong and that the mob was. And again, could Capitol Police have more.
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Unknown D
Were you talking to Ray Epps? Is that who you were talking to?
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Unknown G
Well, let me. I want to ask Winston a question, which is this, Winston, do you see a difference between people that day who committed acts of violence against Police officers and people like Jacob here who did not. I mean, do you see a qualitative difference between the two? J.D. vance said he could see an argument for pardoning the nonviolent rioters. And I see that argument. They'd all been imprisoned, almost all of them. And many people felt some of the sentencing was way over the top for nonviolent acts. Do you see a difference between the two?
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Unknown E
I do see a difference. Of course, you know, somebody who just entered the building illegally did not commit as bad an act as those who used a stun gun against, you know, my fellow officers who use bats and two by fours bear spray against us. Of course, there is a difference there. You know, I like to think some people there that day normally would respect police. They had blue Lives Matter flags. I like to think that some of those people just perhaps got caught up in the moment and make mistakes. However. No, you know, we all make mistakes, but we must be held accountable for our actions. The justice system imposed, you know, these people got due process. You know, Trump says they're hostages. It acts like they, you know, were victims of this. They're only victims of their own actions. And so, sure, I can see a difference.
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Unknown E
But again, when you put a blanket pardon like this, particularly those who are violent, you know, it's, it is offensive. And I know Capitol Police officers today who are still working, very upset by this action. Why should they continue to do their jobs every day if violence against them is just not going to matter?
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Unknown G
Right. And Jacob, before I go to Vinny.
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Unknown D
And that, that, that rationale, I'm sorry, that rationale applies to Joe Biden and all the pardons he just put out.
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Unknown G
Yeah, yeah, we're going to come to that. Jacob versus Jacob, before I go to Vinnie for his response, he's been waiting patiently. I would just ask you the same question. Do you see a difference yourself? I mean, what do you say about those on the day who did commit acts of violence against police officers? Do you see a difference between them and people like you?
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Unknown D
Yes, I do, to be perfectly honest with you. But I respect the president's decision to pardon those people, and I'll tell you why. Because what happened in 2020 with the riots and what's happened with the pardons that Joe Biden has put out there, attention has to be drawn to that. And Donald Trump pardoning some people, that a small, small percentage of people that har officers or committed acts of vandalism on that day is nothing compared to the damage that was done by the pardons that Joe Biden did. Or by the psyop that was perpetrated on the American people by Russia, Russia, Russia for four years by the Hunter Biden laptop suppression by these 51 intelligence agents. Lying then going after all these people because of January 6th, all the lives that were destroyed. Like I would way rather have J6ers on the street that hit a cop than I would a child molester from Nicaragua.
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Unknown G
Okay, look, you make a lot of points there, some of which I would have neither. Well, yeah, exactly, that's my point. But before I go to Vinny Jacob, just to be clear, it seems to me like you, you would unreservedly condemn the rioters that day who committed acts of violence against police officers. Would you?
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Unknown D
I believe in nonviolent non cooperation with evil. If you cooperate with an evil system, you contribute to its evil. That's Gandhi right there. And that's truth. So I believe in nonviolent non cooperation.
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Unknown G
So is that you would condemn the people who committed acts of violence against police officers?
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Unknown D
I believe that they have served their time enough and they've felt the full weight of the government. Very, very few people.
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Unknown G
That's not my question.
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Unknown D
I condemn violence that happened on January 6th. But I also agree with the pardons.
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Unknown G
That's fair enough. But just to be clear, you do condemn the people who, who committed acts of violence that day, the rioters who did, who were violent?
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Unknown D
I just answered your question.
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Unknown G
It's a yes. I don't want to misquote you, so I'm just pinning you down to say yes.
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Unknown D
I've already. Well, then play the tape back, buddy.
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Unknown G
Well, you said you condemn acts of violence, so by definition, I'm assuming you are condemning the rioters who committed acts of violence.
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Unknown D
Now you're starting to think for yourself.
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Unknown G
Well, can you just say yes or no?
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Unknown D
Yes.
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Unknown G
Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Listen, you know what? I actually appreciate that honesty. I appreciate the candor. I think it moves the debate to a better place when people on all sides of this can concede things which actually we should all agree on. There can be an argument about whether Trump should have pardoned them. There should be no argument, especially when we have one of these police officers sitting in this panel, that violence against police officers is never acceptable and should always be condemned. Vinny, you be very patient. Vinny, let me bring you in. Actually a really interesting debate this, and honestly, all of it has been fascinating to me and to actually have one of the people who's been pardoned next to one of the police officers and reaching some points of agreement, I think is a really important thing. Vinny, what do you feel about this?
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Unknown G
The Republicans were split. Many Republicans. Clearly, J.D. vance did not want the ones who were violent against police officers to be pardoned. It does seem to fly in the face of what most Republicans would think, which is if you commit an act of violence against police, you should not be pardoned. What do you think?
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Unknown F
Well, first, Piers, I want to congratulate you. Your friend finally inaugurated into the White House. He's gonna stop this bleeding that's been happening with this country. I was there, Piers. I sent your producers a bunch of videos. The guy's done more in three days than Joe Biden has done his entire career. The moment we saw him at the Capitol one arena, he sat down and started citing executive orders and got to business, number one. Number two, Piers, in regards to the January 6th and all the pardons and everything, I've met Jacob in person. What the media told us about this guy, he's a monster. He did this. I met him in person. I interviewed him. Amazing guy, great heart. He's intellectual. He knows what he's talking about. He loves this country. Okay. And what happened on January 6th? I know Watt said something about free and fair election.
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Unknown F
That's what you believe. The American people don't believe that the majority of us, 81 million votes, all the discrepancies, FBI at Twitter, all the cheating or election interference. I think that day, in regard to Winston, about on January 6th, my heart goes out to him, cuz to me, he was a victim for Nancy Pelosi and all them holding back 10,000 National Guard troops. All the games playing. He was a pawn in the game of destroy Donald Trump no matter what.
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Unknown G
Okay, let me ask you though, Vinny. But Vinny, but Vinny, I mean, look, that may well be the case. That may well be the case, but it doesn't change the fact that thousands of people, as part of a large group of people, did storm the Capitol. And many of them broke in and some of them committed acts of violence against police in the process. None of that, I mean, all of it looked appalling. I got to the rest of the world, it looked like America lost its mind. Right? When you look back on it now, we can debate the nuances of who should have been pardoned and so on. I do think some of the more peaceful protesters got way too big sentences. For what it's worth, I don't think they're all violent. They shouldn't be treated the same way. But I do think any violence against police officers, I'm staggered that Donald Trump has pardoned them.
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Unknown G
Honestly, I am. I wouldn't have done it if I was here. I agree with JD Vance's position on that.
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Unknown F
Yeah, yeah. But Piers, Okay. And Piers, I'm, by the way, I was a military police in the United States Air Force. Any violence, period, I'm not for. But that day, Piers, let's think about it. Where was the insurrection? Who had the guns? Who was violent? The FBI, Christopher Wray. We don't even know how many FBI agents, how many informants, how many people. You're shooting rubber bullets in people's faces and acting as if they're not going to be upset. Okay, we saw the footage of everybody inside, who was shooting, who was taking over. Where was the insurrection? Where was it? Pierce? Donald Trump didn't say go in there and do all of this. A big group of people came in there. Who knows how much they were freaking.
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Unknown G
They were all breaking the law, Vinny. They were all breaking the law.
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Unknown F
Yes.
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Unknown G
We have to agree that, right?
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Unknown F
Yes. And do you. Okay, Pierce, I agree. And do you think who died that day, Pierce, who, who was actually the highest crime is murder. Okay. A Capitol Police Michael Byrd shot Ashley Babbitt and murdered her. Okay. Unarmed United States Air Force veteran. What? He got pardoned as well. Okay. And yes, Pierce, it looked bad. But you know what? When the system, you believe the system's cheating you, you go to the system and you protest. And when he was talking about BLM and all the riots, everybody burned down their own city. Why the hell would you do that? If you have a problem with the police department, go to the police department. Why are you burning down black owned businesses? Why are you burning down black owned businesses? Why are you burning down your city? Okay. These people felt like they were cheated. And you know what?
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Unknown F
The facts have come out. They were. So they went to protest. And unless we find out with all the evidence that was destroyed who was involved, who was in there, antifa people dressed as Trump supporters, FBI agents inside the Capitol. Unless we have all those facts peers, you don't know who was actually at fault and who was doing what.
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Unknown G
Okay. I mean, what I would say about, you know, we now know that they were cheated. Actually, we don't, because there's never been any evidence produced that that 2020 election was rigged. Donald Trump keeps saying it. I wish he wouldn't. He doesn't need to say it. He's one big. Now, he doesn't need to go back over that Again, but actually, including Republican judges, nobody has ever found any concrete evidence that that election was rigged. So the reason why people. Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. The reason why people were protesting in the way they did was because they believed it. I certainly believe that. But the reality is it's never been backed up by actual hard evidence, even by Republican judges who've studied it. So this premise that somehow it was illegally stolen from Donald Trump, the first time I've said it to his face, and I believe it now, just as I still believe what I wrote in that column that Wajahat quoted from earlier.
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Unknown G
You know, I just think that you've got to. There are certain things where people can continue to say it was stolen and rigged and so on, but you've got to actually, at some point stump up the hard evidence, and it's never happened.
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Unknown C
May I say something, Pierce?
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Unknown G
Yeah, hang on, hang on. I'll come back to you. Respond, and then I'll come back.
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Unknown C
Yeah, Pierce, look, you and I have disagreements, but we have agreements. And I read that part of your column because I agree with it. Shame on Donald Trump for continuing. This is the keyword. Continuing to perpetuate a grotesque, inflammatory lie that threatens to imperil the very foundation of American democracy. What is that lie? That he won the 2020 election, that he lost. And you and me, we've been on your show before. We've talked about it. It's time for him to move on. He won 2016. He won 2024. He continues to perpetuate this lie to the point, Pierce, where now 80% of Republican voters believe the lie. And some of them were incited by that lie, invited by Donald Trump. In fact, Jacob's former attorney said that Jacob was a guest of Donald Trump, that he was duped by Donald Trump, that he apologized for being there.
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Unknown C
That was Jacob's former attorney, Right? These people were there. These are regular Americans.
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Unknown D
Former attorney.
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Unknown C
I said former attorney. Former attorney. These people are fellow Americans. These people were fellow Americans. They weren't evil. They didn't have horn on their heads. They truly thought that this election was stolen, which it wasn't. No proof has come out that was stolen. Joe Biden won just like Donald Trump won in 2024.
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Unknown G
Do you accept? All right, but what, Jahad, do you accept? Hang on, hang on, guys. Sure. Do you accept? Because I do. That there was a clear double standard in the way that people who protested through the blm months of extreme violence, in many cases, trashing institutions and buildings, attacking police. I mean, a Lot of people were involved in this. That there was a clear double standard in the way that they were collectively treated by the justice system and the way that the 1500 January 6th protesters were treated. You accept there's been a clear double standard here?
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Unknown C
I think there's been an obscene double standard, and I'm so glad you brought it up, because if BLM members, if Black Muslim indigenous Americans were to do what MANGA members did, first and foremost, we wouldn't even gone to the Capitol because we would have been shot dead. And secondly, the fact that Donald Trump. Wait for it. Donald Trump and his fan celebrate the January 6th insurrectionists. Right? These are people.
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Unknown F
Wait, wait.
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Unknown G
Why aren't you answering my question?
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Unknown C
I will. I kept quiet.
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Unknown D
That's a bad answer. He doesn't want to answer it.
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Unknown G
No, I am.
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Unknown C
January 6th, violent insurrectionist MAGA members attacked Capitol Police. Number one, they invaded the Capitol. They smeared shit in the Capitol. Some of them came with weapons with the intention to assassinate Mike Pence and Nancy Pelosi. And some of the violence that was done against 140.
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Unknown G
But why aren't you asking my question? No, hold on a second. Jacob, I will come to you, Jacob. Jacob, I'll come to you the moment he's answered my question. I'll come to you, Jacob.
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Unknown C
Yeah. So no BLM protesters or antifa protesters participated in a violent insurrection. Number one, none of them attacked the police like January 6th insurrectionists who were praised by Donald Trump. And number three, if they did attack.
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Unknown G
They did attack police. Wing rioters. Attack police? What are you talking about?
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Unknown C
Did they take flag poles and beat the police?
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Unknown G
Sorry. Many, many cocktails. Many BLM riots. On that point, let me bring back Winston. I mean, you know more about this probably than we do, but this idea, I certainly think there's merit to it. But this idea that there was a double standard in the collective way that the BLM protesters were treated compared to the collective way January 6th protesters were treated. What do you feel about that?
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Unknown E
Well, here's the difference. Again, I'm glad we all can at least agree that violence on law enforcement is not okay. But here's the difference. Those riots, again, I'm not condoning what happened across any major city that experienced those in the summer of 2020. However, a city block in Minneapolis, even in downtown D.C. is very different than the United States Capitol, which is our sacred hall of democracy. And you know, this temple that, for me personally, I spent years making so many personal sacrifices in service to Congress and service to our nation. And so the difference there Is, you know, what happens. Rioting on the street. Of course, that's not okay, but that is very different than attacking on a specific day when a presidential election is being certified, the actual results. You know, again, we have not seen any credible evidence that the election was stolen besides the president's claims that it was in 2020.
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Unknown G
I mean, I would say. Okay, I would say, Winston, before I go to Jacob to respond. He wants to respond. And all I would say to that is, you know, I get your point, that it happened at the Capitol, and therefore, to the world watching, it was. It was worse, in a way. But in the end, violence is. Violence is violence. And statistically, there was a lot more violence collectively over the period of these BLM riots through that long, hot, very difficult summer than there was on January 6th. And the.
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Unknown C
No, there wasn't piers.
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Unknown G
Well, there was. No, there was A lot more people.
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Unknown F
A lot more people did be alive.
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Unknown G
Well, a lot more people died.
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Unknown F
Yes, it was. It went on for months.
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Unknown G
A lot more people died. A lot more police officers were attacked. Right. I mean, every statistic would suggest that there was a lot more violence over a longer, sustained period of time. And all I would say, Winston, is in the end, violence is. Violence is violence, particularly against police officers. You know, more police were attacked over that.
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Unknown E
When you have. When you have violence with a political goal, that's the definition of terrorism. You know, so again, I.
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Unknown D
That's what was happening in 2020, dude.
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Unknown G
So, Winston, are you saying that again? So, Winston, would you categorize. Hang on, Jacob. I will come to you. So, Winston, would you categorize what happened on January 6 as an act of terrorism?
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Unknown E
Well, you know, I mean, certainly by some. Yes. And I think. You know what the challenge here is in this conversation. The summer of 2020 has been so lumped in with this general thing. We can't talk about what happened that summer because each city was different, each experience of each officer was different. And so to sort of lump it all in together isn't really factual. You know, it's not fair to actually the facts. And again, I respect all those law enforcement officers who were injured that summer and who continue to serve. Same with Capitol Police, too. But we can't. We cannot lump in riots that happened in Minneapolis versus other cities and then sort of compare. Oh, and then use that to justify what happened on January 6th. That's absolutely false.
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Unknown G
Jacob, your response to that?
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Unknown B
Yes.
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Unknown D
Okay. First of all, the media lied. What we saw with January 6th was a massive, massive, politically motivated psyop that was Based on a politically motivated setup, all right? All with fingerprints of regime change. All with the hallmarks of regime change.
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Unknown H
Here.
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Unknown D
Now, look, when the media said that this was the worst attack on the Capitol in our nation's history, they were wrong. Because the Weather Underground literally bombed the Capitol. That's the left. Oh, and by the way, the guy, Bill Ayers, that was a part of the Weather Underground, the bombing of the Capitol, he was pardoned by Obama and later actually got involved with the Department of Education in the Obama administration. Oh, there's also the time that, you know, a bunch of Puerto Ricans actually shot congressmen inside the Capitol. I believe that was also a leftist cause as well. So what has happened and what we've seen with this J6 narrative is that the media has pushed this insurrection narrative over and over again. They've used trigger words and trigger images to create an instinctual and an emotional response in the subconscious mind, telling people their country and their democracy is under threat.
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Unknown D
And they made people like me their. Their psyop poster boy, which was a very large mistake, because the fact of the matter is, nothing that they said about me on January 6th was true. They had the audacity to say that I call myself the QAnon Shaman, for God's sake. None of. None of that's true. So, like, every bit of the narrative of J6 is a lie. They told us that police officers died. That's not true. They knew it wasn't true. They avoided the fact of talking about the fact that actually four protesters died on that day. Not just Ashley Babbitt, but Rosalind Boyland and two others, many of which were victims of police brutality. Okay. They didn't talk about the COVID up with Yogananda Pittman or Tom Manger when he came in. This thing stinks to high heaven. And anybody that can't see that it stinks and how it involves, like, nefarious agents within our own government or 51 intelligence agents or something.
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Unknown D
You got another thing coming.
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Unknown G
Jacob, what were you actually. Jacob, what were you actually convicted of?
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Unknown D
I pled guilty to the 50. The 1512 charge, which is the obstruction of an official proceeding that the Supreme Court said was not applicable. And it's clearly, it was being used to bend the law and gain convictions out of people that just trespassed into the building.
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Unknown G
Vinnie. You know, it's fascinating to talk to. Jacob. I have to say, I wasn't. I didn't know which way the interview would go. It's been really interesting. Very interesting. Listening to Winston and hearing that perspective as well. What should we learn from all this? Obviously, nobody ever wants to see what happened that day happen again. This is one of the great symbols of American democracy, the greatest, arguably the Capitol. You don't ever want to see that kind of thing again.
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Unknown D
No. No, you don't. And the thing is, we have to.
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Unknown G
Sorry. Sorry, Jacob. That was for Vinny.
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Unknown C
That's what it is.
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Unknown G
That was for Vinny, actually. Sorry.
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Unknown D
Oh, I'm sorry.
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Unknown G
Sorry. Thank you.
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Unknown F
Yeah. No, it's all good, Jacob. Well, Piers, I mean, at the end of the day, this violent rhetoric that Waj was talking about, like, the violent rhetoric, the majority of it, 99% of it was from the other side. And, Piers, you guys keep talking about free and fair election, and there's no evidence. You want me to believe the same justice system that has been trying to destroy Trump for freaking nine years, to believe them when it comes to an election? Pierce, I don't. The irregularities were all over the place. Your guys circle your bubble. You don't see it. We've seen it.
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Unknown G
Well, no. What I was saying. No, no, Vinny, to be clear, what I would say is even Republican judges have not established that. So even the judges on your side have not been able to establish what you're saying.
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Unknown F
He lost me. It's okay. I'm not a Republican, Pierce. Pierce. I'm not a Republican. I'm not a Democrat. I'm not. Pierce. I vote for what's right, okay? I vote for what's right. And what's wrong when you say Republican, you label Republican. Liz Cheney's a Republican. Who the hell in the Republican Party trusts her? Pierce? So, yes, Pierce, the day was ugly. I guarantee this guy can't even define insurrection. Nobody was shooting. Nobody was doing anything. They were pissed off, Pierce. And they had a right to be pissed off. And I said it again. If you have a problem with the system, Pierce, you go to the system. You don't burn down your city. And he would say, how long did the BLM riots go for? Cops were murdered. And he's saying nothing violent happened. They were throwing Molotov cocktails that were hitting police officers. And if we don't want it, Piers, we don't want this to ever happen again, okay?
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Unknown F
We have to be open. We have to be transparent, okay? When questions are asked, the government has to answer them, Piers. And when the president, the sitting president, requests 10,000 National Guard troops, they should. His. His request should be answered. Okay, Piers. It was a shit show from the beginning to the end. And pelosi and them wanted it. Let me finish. And they used it, Piers. They've been using it just like Russia. Collusion didn't work, Piers. This was their Russian collusion of 2000 for this election. They thought this was gonna be the. Oh, got you.
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Unknown G
Okay. Wajahat. You got literally like 30 seconds to respond quickly.
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Unknown C
Yeah. I think it's very important that Enrique Tarrio and Stuart Rhodes are coming home. These are people who said they were part of a violent right wing group. They said that they're the army of Donald Trump. And Stuart Rhodes said that he is for a civil war. Fourteen people were convicted for seditious conspiracy, more than any other time since the Civil War. These are the people that maga, Vinnie and Donald Trump are celebrating as patriots and Hostages who wounded 140 Capitol Police officers and engaged in a violent insurrection to overthrow our free and fair election, which Joe Biden won in 2020.
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Unknown G
But you know, the difference which I had between, you know, the difference between the pardons that Trump did and the pardons that Biden did is that we don't even know what Biden was pardoning. Even with his own family. We don't know what crimes they all got up to if they did because we'll never know because they've got a preemptive get out of jail free card on the side of the protesters. They all went to prison pretty much. Right. It's a different situation. There's only ever been one preemptive pardon in the history of America and that was Gerald Ford with Richard Nixon. As Victor Davis Hansen said, an amazing stat, that Biden has broken all records for preemptive pardons and for pardons and that trashes his legacy. But it also makes it very difficult, very difficult to then take the high moral ground with all of this stuff with the Biden was with the Trump ones.
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Unknown G
I've got to leave it there. Thank you. Particularly to you, Winston. Thank you for your service and for what you went through that day, for all the years that you worked at the Capitol. We can all agree on that. And Jacob, I'm actually pleased you are out. I think that you're an interesting person to talk to you about all this. And you weren't violent on the day. I think those who were violent, it's a different situation. But it's good to see you on uncensored and I hope that, you know, you're out again. You can be a force for good, as I'm sure you'll try to be. And to wajahat. Good luck. With your new podcast, which is you and one of my other favorites, Francesca, I'm sure that will be one of the. How can I put this delicately? One of the least partisan podcasts in the history of podcasts. I look forward to it.
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Unknown C
Well, I just want to say, Jacob, be easy on those mother effing guns that you promised to go get.
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Unknown D
Well, you want them in my hands, not yours.
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Unknown C
I'm not a violent insurrectionist. It's okay. I drive a minivan.
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Unknown G
Well, to be fair. To be fair with Jahat, nor was he. Or do you think he was.
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Unknown C
But he was there. He was there. And he still believes in QAnon, a conspiracy theory that radicalized people to commit violence. So. So you're praising a man, Piers, and you're platforming a man who to me has seems to have very little regret about what happened on that day. So I think that's shameful. But to you, yours. To me, mine. And I agree with you when he said shame on Trump for perpetuating that grotesque, inflammatory lie.
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Unknown G
Right? He actually did. He actually did what I.
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Unknown B
Okay.
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Unknown C
But he did the very foundation of American democracy.
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Unknown G
You know what, Piers Morgan, you know what Jacob did? Actually condemn those who committed acts of violence against police officers that day. And I'm pleased he did. I think that's an important part of this debate. And for that, I'm pleased to have him on uncensored. You may not like it, but I'm happy to do that. And Vinny, good to see you too. Thank you all very much.
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Unknown F
I love you.
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Unknown G
Well, joining me now is one of the most notable recipients of a President Trump clemency, the former Democrat governor for Illinois, Rog Blagojevich, who was sentenced to 14 years in 2012, convicted of trying to sell Barack Obama's vacated U.S. senate seat. Trump committed his sentence back in 2020, and he joins me now. Rod, thank you very much indeed for joining me.
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Unknown H
Thanks for having me. I just want to correct you. The so called attempted sale of the Senate seat was reversed by the appellate court. It was never a crime. The prosecution against me was a big, corrupt, weaponized prosecution. And little By Little, as Dr. Martin Luther King used to say, truth crushed to earth will one day rise again because no lie can live forever. So the fight continues, and I appreciate the chance to be here to set the record straight. Winston Churchill said a lie could travel halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to put its pants on. And that lie against me that happened on 9th December 2008 is still swirling around My pants are halfway up. I hope over time to get them all the way up and let people know how dirty and rotten some of these prosecutors are in the United States who turn themselves into political weapons and who did to a Democrat governor back then what they've been trying to do to a Republican president since President Trump decided to run for president again.
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Unknown G
So if you had your time again, you'd do exactly the same thing.
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Unknown H
Say it again, Pierce.
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Unknown G
Well, if you had your time again, then you'd do exactly the same thing.
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Unknown H
Yes, I would respond to President Obama's request to make a political deal. The whole thing that happened to me started with him on election night. He sent an emissary to me to talk about making a political deal. He had a candidate that he wanted for the Senate. We discussed those deals. The prosecutors criminalized it against me. They made a deal with Obama, and when the heat happened and they arrested me, Obama ran away, protected himself. I understand his politics. And he ended up going to the White House for eight years, and I went to the big house for eight years. Obama didn't break any laws. It's political horse trading, and that's what the appellate court eventually said. It was nothing more than routine political log rolling. But when they tell that big lie like they do, and they have the authority that they have, and most of us, including myself, regrettably believe them, it's awfully hard to fight against that.
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Unknown H
And so it's been a long, hard battle. It's been a marathon. And little by little, though, I'm getting there. More and more people are realizing that you can't really trust some of these prosecutors in the one area in America that understands that best is the African American community, because they've been on the wrong end of law enforcement lying about them in too many cases.
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Unknown G
For those who don't know the intricacies of your case, but just remember the take that came out saying, I've got this thing and it's effing golden. I'm just not giving it up for nothing. What? How do you explain that?
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Unknown H
Very easy. We had a discussion the day after I was approached by Obama's emissary on, you know, what kind of political deals we can make. One of our my political advisors had suggested, well, maybe we just give him whatever he wants and make him happy. The others advising me and I agreed suggested that would be political malpractice, because I had this thing and it was effing golden. And I'm not just going to give it up for nothing. We're Going to make a political deal. And in the end, I was about to make a deal that would benefit the people of Illinois. And the next day, when it was decided and they were hearing all of those telephone calls, they arrested me to stop it. And since that happened, they've been covering up those tapes. 98% of the FBI tape recordings with me have been covered up and are under a gag order to this day.
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Unknown H
And hopefully now with President Trump and the administration, perhaps some of those tapes can be released and show how they lied, how they lied to the public and how they lied in court, how they lied on me and how they sent me to prison for 14 years. And it would have been 14 years had President Trump not reached in and rescued me eight years into that very long and unhappy journey.
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Unknown G
Why do you think Trump did that?
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Unknown H
Because Trump saw that it was all bullshit. Can you say that on your show?
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Unknown G
You can. It's uncensored. Say what you like.
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Unknown H
No kidding. Well, and you know, because Trump is fucking golden, and he saw through what happened. And I think he appreciated the fact that I was fighting back. I think he appreciated the fact so much that he invited me on Celebrity Apprentice, a show that apparently you did a lot better on than I did, because he fired me on that show correctly. But then who'd have thought when he did that, many years later, he would actually free me? No, he saw what was wrong. And that says something about Donald Trump. People don't realize what a kind person he is and how courageous he is. He's willing to do things that don't even benefit himself. Pulling me out of prison. The first Democratic governor who endorsed Obama did nothing for his politics. In fact, he had a lot of explaining to do with members of his own party.
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Unknown H
But he did it anyway because he saw something that's wrong. And that's why, as we move forward here in the United States, we've just elected him president a second time around. I have great confidence and great hope that he's going to be really a transformational president and a truly great president.
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Unknown G
President, let's talk about the pardons that have been a huge number of them, of course, in the last few days. First of all, Donald Trump pardoning all of the 1500 January 6th protesters, even JD Vance and I agreed with him, said that the pardon should not extend before the announcement to those who committed acts of violence against police officers. What do you feel? I mean, do you feel that those people who did the actual acts of violence, should they have also been pardoned along with those who were Actually non violent that day.
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Unknown H
Well, I think President Trump was right to provide clemency to all of the January 6th protesters, including those who committed acts they shouldn't have committed. There were certainly laws that were being broken by some of the crazy people that went and did their own thing. Those who committed the violent acts, my understanding is they've already done prison time and, and they've probably done, what, four years. You know, the punishment's supposed to fit the crime. And I have to believe that in those cases, those were carefully reviewed and the decision was made. But with regard to sweeping clemency and most of them being pardons for the protesters, no, I applaud President Trump for doing that. They were political prisoners. We have a right here in America, as you do in England, to march on city hall and protest. There will be from time to time stupid crazy people who overdo it and they should be held accountable.
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Unknown H
And I think those that did that have already been held accountable for all the time they've done in prison so far. And one thing I learned about the criminal justice system in America, Piers, during, because of my hard, long, hard journey, is in too many cases, justice is not tempered by mercy. And, you know, you're from England and you're a lot smarter than I am and you know Shakespeare better than I do, But I can't tell you how many times I reread Portia's speech about tempering justice with mercy and how important that was as I was sitting in prison getting absolutely no mercy and being treated in an unmerciful way. And so you can punish people and rightfully hold them accountable and put them in jail, as we must in many, many cases. But I think we have to be smart and realize that there's a necessary component of morality involved when you do punish someone, that you temper it with mercy and that each case is different and they should be judged individually on a case by case basis.
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Unknown G
So what do you feel about the Biden preemptive pardons, which are pretty unprecedented? There's only ever been one, which was when Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon, president to president. Many think Joe Biden should have done that with Donald Trump's conviction, including I think he should have done as well, because I thought that his conviction was absurd. But putting that to one side, there's a huge number of people that Biden has preemptively blanket pardon, including a lot of his family, including his son, his brothers, and so on. That sets an extraordinary precedent where they didn't actually end up going to prison at all, many of them. We don't even know what alleged crimes they may or may not have committed because they've never been properly tested in the courtroom and so on. What do you feel about that?
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Unknown H
Well, I think that's a classy example of projection. I mean, President Biden weaponized the Justice Department against Donald Trump, and so he just assumed Trump's going to do the same thing to his people that he did to Trump and to Trump's people. To me, that's just proof, almost an admission by Biden, Biden, that what he did with the Department of Justice was weaponize it against his political opponent. So, no, I think those were the wrong things to do, those preemptive pardons in those particular cases, because there's no evidence that President Trump's going to do anything but actually try to end lawfare like he said the other day. So I think that, frankly, is an admission of guilt by Biden. And, you know, this is no small thing, Piers. This goes to the heart of our freedoms in America. If our prosecutors become political weapons, we're not the United States of America anymore.
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Unknown H
We're the Soviet Union, we're Russia. That's kgb, Soviet style police state politics. And they brought that to America and it has to end. And I truly believe that because of the hard circumstances that President Trump faced by Biden and his politicized and weaponized doj, I think President Trump is going to reform the system and make it work for all Americans. And I think he's going to end lawfare and end the weaponization of prosecutions that I don't believe he's going to go after his political opponents. And we have a precedent for that. And you know what, that was his first term. He didn't do that. They did it to him.
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Unknown G
You know, I completely agree that he should just not go down that road. Finally, you know, you, you were a high flying governor of a big state in America. You had it all, you lost it all. You go to prison when you're sitting in there year after year, as you say, nobody showing you much mercy or even caring really. What was going on with you? Two questions. Distrust me. I'd be interested to get your quick answer to one, what did you learn about yourself during the period of incarceration that maybe surprised you? And secondly, what did you miss most about not being a free man?
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Unknown H
Well, I'm writing a book about it and it'll come out this year and I talk about that. I would say a couple of things. First, there was no way what I learned about that experience was there was no way I could have endured it, persevered through it, or overcame it had it not been for faith, hope, and love. You know, my faith in God and the strength that that gave me, actually having the chance to read the Bible in prison in ways I never read it before because I was so alone and so desperate. I didn't mess around with Genesis where people are beginning, all kinds of people. I would always get stuck in that in my life when I was a free person. No, I went right to the things that I thought could help me, like the Psalms and the Proverbs and Isaiah and Jeremiah and the Gospels and of course, Jesus.
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Unknown H
You know, I observed the Christian faith. I'm not proselytizing it on anybody. But there was Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, and he prays to God because he knows what's coming his way. Oh, Father, lift this cup from me. Then he realizes it's God's will and says, not my will, thy will. So I learned that. And I learned that, as Viktor Frankl writes in his book Man's Search for Meaning, which I read three times during those 2,896 days in prison, which is one month short of eight years. I learned that it's true that the last of the human freedoms, even when everything's been taken from you, is your freedom to choose your own attitude in any given set of circumstances. And I was able to find strength by reminding myself of that and then believing and recognizing that I did have problems.
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Unknown B
Purpose.
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Unknown H
If you can find the why to live, you can find the how. And my purpose was my little girls at home. My little one was 8 years old when they took me away. My older 1 was 15. I missed my girls growing up, but the one thing I could do for them was to be strong and to never give in, to never give up and to try to turn what was a rotten situation into a place where I could grow, where I could learn, where I could get stronger and better and wiser. Now, I'm not saying I'm necessarily wise, but I am stronger and I'm fitter because I worked out every day. You ought to see me compared to the current governor of Illinois. It's night and day. But I had that opportunity. And anyway, I learned that love conquers all. And my love for my daughters and my wife, my determination to come back someday and not let them destroy me and to somehow come back better.
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Unknown H
And that I could show my daughters that even in the hardest circumstances you can overcome and grow I felt like that was my purpose. So that's what I learned and that's what I learned about myself. And I write about that in this book that I'm writing. And I hope that maybe one day I could elaborate on that further because I feel like I can help people who go through their hard times get through it because it's helpful to see where the other guy was able to get through something that was difficult. Well, then I can do it myself.
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Unknown G
Well, come back. I'd love to talk to you in more depth when the book comes out about all that. It sounds fascinating and just very finally the thing you miss most outside of family and friends and stuff, but the tangible thing perhaps that you miss most when you were languishing in prison.
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Unknown H
Well, my daughters, my wife and Banana splits.
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Unknown G
Banana splits? Yeah. I think I'd miss a big Mac. I have one about every seven weeks. I've often thought if I ever went to jail, I'd miss my every seven week big Mac. Rod, thank you very much indeed for joining me. I appreciate it.
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Unknown H
Thank you, Piers, and congratulations on your success.
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Unknown G
Thank you very much. And come back when your book comes out. I'd be really interested in talking to you in more depth about that. I think when people go to prison for a long time who've had it all and then lose it all, it gives them a fascinating perspective on life. And often they talk in a very different way to how they would have done before it all happened. So I'd be interested to talk to you about that. Thank you very much.
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Unknown E
Thank you.