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Unknown A
What I find interesting is ways that we can put ideas into place, like the Ulysses contract. So are you famil with Ulysses? So. So, okay, just as a You remember Ulysses, Odysseus was coming home from the Trojan war and realized he was gonna pass the island of the sirens, and he wanted to hear the song of the sirens, but he knew that, like any mortal man, he'd crash in the rocks and die. So you remember what he did? He filled his men's ears with beeswax. He had them lash him to the mast, and he said, no matter what I do, just keep on sailing. Okay. What was happening here was that the Ulysses of sound mind, way back here, knew that the future Ulysses would behave badly when he passed the island.
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Unknown B
Yes.
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Unknown A
He knew that there was no way he wasn't going to behave badly there. So what he did is he made a contract with himself. He said, I'mnna lash myself to the master, that I can't do the wrong thing. Okay. So this is what philosophers call Ulysses contract. And I'm fascinated by these because we use these in all kinds of ways in our lives. And actually, one of my next books is about this ca becausee I think it's the most practical way, when you're in a moment of sober reflection, to think about, okay, who do I wa want to be? And how can I establish Ulysses contract with myself?
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Unknown B
Yes, yes, definite.
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Unknown A
That I can't break. It's an unbreakable kind of contract. And so I'll just give you an example of this.
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Unknown B
Why were you driven? Why were you attracted to the terminology contract?
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Unknown A
Because it's not something you can break. Because it's not that Ulysses said, okay, t me anything, but leave a little string here that I can pull and let the ropes down something. It's that he was bound to that mast. He was attached to it and could not get off the mast. Okay? That's the important part.
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Unknown B
So it like a marriage contract?
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Unknown A
Yeah, exactly. But even more marriage contract you can break also. But the key with Ulysses contracts is you really want toa make them unbreakable. Here's just a couple examples. For example, in alcoholics anonymous, the first thing they have you do is clear all the alcohol out of your house. Because even if somebody feels like, hey, look, I'm done, I'm not going to drink, but I'll leave those things in case I have a party or whatever, they know that on some festive Friday night or a lonely Sunday night or something, you might o so you get rid of it so that the Temptation can't be there. Or with drug addiction programs, first thing they tell you is like, don't ever walk around with more than 20 bucks in your pocket. Because even if you think you're over at some point, someone's goingna offer you drugs, and if you've got the money, you might spend it.
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Unknown A
So there's a million ways that we can make these kinds of contracts with ourselves. And the reason it's important is because what we're doing is setting up some kind of higher order ideal. And I know you think about this in terms of religion.
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Unknown B
I think religion is this religious. The religious enterprise is the. What would you say? It's the establishment and analysis and experience of those higher order contracts. I think that's the way of defining it. So you can think of the higher order the contract, the more religious like it is.
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Unknown A
That's another.
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Unknown B
This is a definition, by the way.
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Unknown A
I don't know that I agree with the definition, but because.
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Unknown C
Let me think.
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Unknown A
Because all the Ulysses contracts that I try to always set up in my life, I don't think about them as being religious, although they are. I mean, they.
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Unknown B
That's why it's a matter of definition. Okay, well, let me ask you a couple of questions based on what you just said, okay? Because there were. I couldn't. There were two ways. You went as far as I could tell, and I can't reconcile them. So we started talking about games, and you started talking about the manner in which these teams of rivals interact. And there was a suggestion there for a moment that there is something game like about it, that. So that rival systems might be integrated into a higher order agreement, which is essentially what a game is, right? I mean, when two teams are competing on a playing field, you could say they're competing, but they're also cooperating in that they're playing the same game. Like if the game degenerates into a fistf fight, a basketball game, fistf fight and a hockey fistf fight are the same thing, right?
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Unknown B
They're not basketball or hockey. They're a fight. Okay. So you can imagine a higher order agreement that has a. Okay, so then the question would be, is the mediation between rivals best conceptualized as a game? And you point in that direction for a minute, but then you switch to the Ulysses contractor. So I'm wondering, like, how would you contrast a game with a contract?
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Unknown A
I think the contract is part of the game which say. Which is to say, gosh, I know I'mnn behave badly in that situation. So as one twist on this game as a play in this game, I'm gonna put something in place so that I can't do it.
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Unknown B
Forbids it.
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Unknown A
It forbids it. Exactly. It's a way of saying, look, I know I've got all these rivalling networks and I'm notnna get through this. I know that right now I feel like I'm not gonna drink or smoke or whatever somebody's trying to get or. Okay, so I've never had a drink or smoking problem. But one thing I do try to prevent is you. I'm at a restaurant and let's say it's a predefined meal and they put a dessert down. I wanna have a taste of dessert, but I don't wanna eat the whole thing.
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Unknown B
Okay?
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Unknown A
And what happens is, as I'm sitting there talking to everyone, I end up eating the whole thing like an idiot. So what I do is I take a bite or two and then I take the table salt and I cover the thing in salt, the chocolate cake. So that. That's my uuc these contract. Cause I know that the me of three minutes from now is gonna keep sticking my fork in it. So I'm making a contract with myself that I can't break because now the cake is ruined. And so this is just one play in the game of dealing with these.
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Unknown B
It seems to me that there's a deep analogy between that Ulysses contract and something like the rule of a game. I mean, if you, if you set up a basketball game, there are moves that are forbidden, right? And so you can think of games as enabling principles. Here's things you can do in the game, but there's. There's rules that are forbidding as well. Is it with the Ulysses contract concept that you're looking at the rules of the game that are. That forbid? Is that the fundamental concentration on the Ulysses contract side? There are limitations rather than enabling conditions. Cause you have both in a game, right?
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Unknown A
Right.
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Unknown B
Things you can't do and things you can't do.
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Unknown A
Every game'like that, right?
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Unknown C
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Unknown C
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Unknown A
I guess you could think of it that way. I think it was just another move in the game of life in a sense, which is to say, you know, I could eat it. It's a rich energy source, it's delicious, sugar, whatever. And I've got this other move I can do. I guess I think about it in terms of long term versus short term networks in the brain. And so how do I get those networks? Because you, we can image this an fmri, we see these areas that are involved in long and short term thinking. So how do I get these guys to play together in the same game, but in a way that aligns with who I want to be with my long term?
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Unknown B
Yeah, well, let's take that example because I think it provides a very concrete representation of the relationship between superordinate and subordinate goals in future and present.
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Unknown A
Yes.
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Unknown B
Okay, so you already outlined the reasons to eat the chocolate cake, right? It's delicious. And it's delicious because it is a source of energy and a high impact source of energy. So there's reason to eat it. And the reason is immediate. And it's tied to immediate gratification. But now you're. So that's one game, the game of immediate gratification and energy acquisition. But you're putting that underneath a higher order game. Okay, so one questions we might ask is, well, why, what game are you playing when you forbid yourself the cake? Right? What's your aim?
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Unknown A
That game has to do with health, has to do with, you know, keeping slim, has to do with, you know, all of the vanity, all of the things that I want to make sure the kind of person I am who doesn't gulp down the entire chocolate cake.